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South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

ianvisits.co.uk

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Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#21

Post by dspillett »

traceroute66 wrote: post #6

To be honest, for me the most interesting part of the blog post was this one-liner "for an unbuilt high-speed District line service between South Kensington and Mansion House with just one stop at Embankment.". As one of the millions who at some historical point in their lives has had to suffer the District line commute, the above is a thought I used to have regularly whilst stuck sniffing someone's armpit on the Dis…

For large parts of London's underground (and overground[†]) it is simply the case that it wasn't really designed — lines were slapped in willy-nilly by disparate commercial interests with relatively little forward planning, and only later became something like a coherent whole with some consideration for coordinated thinking. Once the lines are in, upgrading them is more difficult than building them in the first place, particularly if you don't want to stop service for large parts of the improvement work.

> just like in any other number of countries around the world

Other cities had extra benefit of hindsight, being able to design around the problems identified in older systems (particularly London's).

> They could have used the same rails, no need for a separate line

You at least need passing places around stations in practise. In theory* you could have many extra points and pass trains between the existing two lines to work around each other instead of keeping one line dedicated for each direction (as is the case for most of the track length) even at stopping points like stations but that gets complex to manage, has more moving parts (which are difficult to maintain in the confined space), would considerably slow down flow at busy periods as the trains can't move as fast over the points (particularly if they may need to switch line at them) and will spend time waiting for an opposing train ahead to switch out of the way, the tunnel around each change point needs to be wider (for the train partly, unless you redesign them too, for maintenance even more so), … It might work for a small number of non-stop trains worming their way through the system around the majority stop-start services, but that number of services would be so small to the point where the investment would not be nearly worth the small overall gain in reduced journey times.

[†] only about 45% of the line distance of the current tube is actually underground[‡] [‡] though that includes large overground sections in the outer zones if you are only considering central London I suspected that %age is considerably higher

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#22

Post by noneeeed »

m4rtink wrote: post #19
noneeeed wrote: post #5

Fascinating post as always from Ian. My dad used to work for the underground and hearing him talk about the challenges of the engineering down there was always fascinating. This is especially true for the deep tunnels and the older parts of the network. Trying to keep the whole network dry, when you are dealing with brickwork that might be 100 or more years old, in a water table that has risen a lot following the end…

How did the heavy industry influence the water table ? I guess they used a lot of water from wells, lowering the water table ?

Yep, basically. Water use is one of those hidden effects of a lot of industrial processes, whether it's used as a coolant or a solvant for processes it often takes a ridiculous amount to produce many goods.

In the past the water would be pumped up from boreholes (London sits on an artesian basin), and was then discharged into the Thames (directly or through the waste water system). This happens a lot less now, because of both a reduction in the amount of industry and improvements in efficiency, so the water table has risen, which means that TfL have to pump out a lot more water than they had to decades ago.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#23

Post by helloguillecl »

lbriner wrote: post #3

This is a great example of why underground railways are so expensive to run. I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. Not only is it expensive to install equipment, you then have to maintain it and replace it and in this example, not even "like for like" are going to fit in the same space. When I used to go round various equipment rooms, there was electrical equipment that was the best part of…

I don't get why so many people and politicians speak about profitability as if it was an optional system for a modern city to have.

Yes, the income via transportation fees are usually similar to operating expenses, but like it's the case with roads, no one should expect for it to cover the full cost of building the infraestructure, much like roads.

The tube is not a part of a closed system and delivers thousands of other societal and economic benefits that are not reflected in the fees paid by their direct users.

Also, this infraestructure can last for more than one century, as I understand is the case of London's tube.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#24

Post by [deleted] »

noneeeed wrote: post #5

Fascinating post as always from Ian. My dad used to work for the underground and hearing him talk about the challenges of the engineering down there was always fascinating. This is especially true for the deep tunnels and the older parts of the network. Trying to keep the whole network dry, when you are dealing with brickwork that might be 100 or more years old, in a water table that has risen a lot following the end…

[deleted]

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#25

Post by bregma »

lbriner wrote: post #3

This is a great example of why underground railways are so expensive to run. I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. Not only is it expensive to install equipment, you then have to maintain it and replace it and in this example, not even "like for like" are going to fit in the same space. When I used to go round various equipment rooms, there was electrical equipment that was the best part of…

> I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable.

The subsurface lines were profitable for at least their first 50 years. Oddly, their profitability started to tumble at about the same time as the rise of the automobile, reinforced by the foreign-based urban renewal blitz that occurred a couple of decades later in which many homes and places of employment were forced to relocate.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#26

Post by hogFeast »

simpleigh wrote: post #7
lbriner wrote: post #3

This is a great example of why underground railways are so expensive to run. I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable. Not only is it expensive to install equipment, you then have to maintain it and replace it and in this example, not even "like for like" are going to fit in the same space. When I used to go round various equipment rooms, there was electrical equipment that was the best part of…

That's not right, I'm afraid - the Underground is usually profitable and subsidises loss-making forms of transport (particularly buses). Here's some high-level, pre-pandemic figures: https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and... (based on TfL's draft budget for 2018-19)

The govt bailed them out last year.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#27

Post by Milner08 »

hogFeast wrote: post #26
simpleigh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not right, I'm afraid - the Underground is usually profitable and subsidises loss-making forms of transport (particularly buses). Here's some high-level, pre-pandemic figures: https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and... (based on TfL's draft budget for 2018-19)

The govt bailed them out last year.

Right, cause covid. You know, when no one was using the service but they had to keep operating for front line workers... hard to make money when there are no users.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#28

Post by nickdothutton »

traceroute66 wrote: post #6

To be honest, for me the most interesting part of the blog post was this one-liner "for an unbuilt high-speed District line service between South Kensington and Mansion House with just one stop at Embankment.". As one of the millions who at some historical point in their lives has had to suffer the District line commute, the above is a thought I used to have regularly whilst stuck sniffing someone's armpit on the Dis…

One of the things you need to remember when thinking about the London Underground, is that it was a scheme that was ultimately unfinished. There were great plans between the world wars to extend it in size and functionality but ultimately these were all stopped by WW2 and an impoverished UK couldn’t afford to do them afterwards. It was planned to extend the network well into Surrey, Kent and other places.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#29

Post by jaclaz »

barneybooroo wrote: post #8

It is amazing how what might seem like fairly routine engineering jobs become completely nightmarish once you do it underground. I used to commute via Goodge Street every day. A few years ago they replaced the four lifts (in twos so that two were still in service) which ultimately took two years. I could never really fathom what it was that specifically slowed that down so much but hey the lift congestion every morni…

From experience in construction (both open air and underground) the key difference is not about something being underground, but rather with something being "in use" while the building site is doing the whatever work is needed.

Particularly when it is something of public use, be it a highway or a railway, the amount of precautions, limitations and safety risks (in some cases for both the public and the workers) grows incredibly, slowing down considerably any intervention.

Re: South Kensington station's escalator replacement project

#30

Post by cryvate1284 »

hogFeast wrote: post #26
simpleigh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not right, I'm afraid - the Underground is usually profitable and subsidises loss-making forms of transport (particularly buses). Here's some high-level, pre-pandemic figures: https://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/03/average-yield-and... (based on TfL's draft budget for 2018-19)

The govt bailed them out last year.

The comment you are replying to said "usually" and that was in response to the GP that said "I don't believe the London Underground has ever been profitable."

The government did not bail out the London Underground in particular last year but TfL, though I would be surprised if the underground was profitable last year.

Anyway, unsure what your comment was adding.

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