U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#441

Post by jedberg » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:25 AM UTC

phyzome wrote: post #436

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

> I no longer have to look at my speedometer I'm curious about this part. Do you manually input a limit, or trust it to read street signs? And how often do you look at your speedometer anyhow? I think on the highway I glance at it maybe once every few minutes and otherwise match speed with the other vehicles, and in the city I look more often but mostly just drive at what feels a safe pace (which seems to match the l…

I don't drive a Tesla, but the one time I did drive one it read the street signs. In my car I just set the speed manually.

It's true, I don't look at the speedometer all that often when driving manually, but it's just one less thing to worry about.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#442

Post by harles » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:25 AM UTC

diggernet wrote: post #440

icelandicmoss wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like part of the problem with the kind of autopilot crashes you describe here is how inexplicable they are to humans. Whilst humans can be dangerous drivers, the incidents they cause generally have a narrative sequence of events that are comprehensible to us -- for instance, driver was distracted, or visibility was poor. But when a supposedly 'all-seeing always watching' autopilot drives straight into a large…

My problem with those crashes is that they are entirely explicable : The car is blind to stationary objects in the road. (My best guess at the logic is they assume that "anything stationary cannot possibly be in the road, right?") To me, that blindness is simply unacceptable. If there is anything in the road, whether identified or not, it should automatically be flagged as a hazard. That flag should only be removed i…

I’m not sure about newer models without radar, but the older ones explicitly discard stationary returns on their radar. As I understand it, without elevation data it can’t know if it’s a bridge you’ll pass under, a soda can in the road, or a stopped car - so just ignore it all.

Of course the vision system is supposed to compensate for this, and it performs poorly on objects it doesn’t see often, like emergency vehicles.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#443

Post by jedberg » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

theluketaylor wrote: post #439

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

I do like using Tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control, but autopilot takes over enough of the driving I know I can't pay meaningful attention for more than 10 or 15 minutes. I just did a 1600 km round trip with traffic aware cruise control on the vast majority of the time, but I didn't turn on autopilot once. Autopilot bothers me for a number of reasons. Fundamentally it's a poor driver, spending time in people's blin…

I don't drive a Tesla, I use a different autopilot system. The one I use isn't as aggressive as Tesla, so it doesn't exhibit these behaviors but also requires more manual takeovers. Also it uses facial recognition so you don't have to touch the wheel (but you can touch the wheel and steering manually doesn't disengage it, only the brake and gas do).

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#444

Post by rrix2 » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #372

spywaregorilla wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're a great driver then. Have you ever shared the road with someone who was a terrible driver?

Yes. Those are people who think they can go hands free, use their phone or watch a movie while on autopilot.

theyre also likely the same type of folks who fall for marketing like "full self driving" without investigating critically or even reading through the analog and digital shrinkwrap they have to tear through to get to their date or appointment or whatever on time.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#445

Post by theluketaylor » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:37 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #35

shakna wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I need to be touching the wheel and applying some force to it or it begins yelling at me and eventually brings me slowly to a stop. > I’ve had it for a year now and I cannot perceive of a way, without physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?) that would allow me to stop being an active participant. That's exactly what people were doing with the Tesla. Hanging a weight to ensure th…

If people are consciously modifying their car to defeat obvious safety systems, I have a really hard time seeing how the auto manufacturer should be responsible. I guess the probe will reveal what share of fatal accidents are caused by this.

GM's Supercruise (which is the actual king of the hill for L2 systems) uses cameras to track the driver's eye position to ensure they are paying attention. It's significantly harder to defeat, is geofenced to prevent use in incompatible situations like surface streets, and has a much more graceful disengagement process. Most of the time autopilot is smooth, but sometimes it just hands control back to the driver without warning.

Teslas can famously be tricked by wedging an orange between the rim and spoke of the steering wheel to produce enough torque on the wheel to satisfy the detection. There are enough videos of it on youtibe that tesla could easily be found negligent for not doing enough to prevent drivers from defeating a safety system given that alternate technology that more directly tracks attention is available and tricking tesla's detection method became common knowledge.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#446

Post by sillystuff » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:48 AM UTC

qweqwweqwe-90i wrote: post #340

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

Yeah, let's ignore all the good and force everyone to go back to human drivers that are 10x worse.

I was curious and went looking for corroboration / refutation of the 10x you stated. Tesla and Musk both have cited 10x safer (but I didn't see any independent confirmation). But, there was a critical analysis by Forbes that came to a different conclusion. Per Forbes, "[with autopilot] it looks like a Tesla is slightly less safe. But not a lot less safe."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/07/28/teslas...

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#447

Post by theluketaylor » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:48 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #443

theluketaylor wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do like using Tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control, but autopilot takes over enough of the driving I know I can't pay meaningful attention for more than 10 or 15 minutes. I just did a 1600 km round trip with traffic aware cruise control on the vast majority of the time, but I didn't turn on autopilot once. Autopilot bothers me for a number of reasons. Fundamentally it's a poor driver, spending time in people's blin…

I don't drive a Tesla, I use a different autopilot system. The one I use isn't as aggressive as Tesla, so it doesn't exhibit these behaviors but also requires more manual takeovers. Also it uses facial recognition so you don't have to touch the wheel (but you can touch the wheel and steering manually doesn't disengage it, only the brake and gas do).

Since autopilot is a specifically Tesla term for their L2 driver assistance features, you may be better served in this thread referring specifically to the system you have. Most other L2 systems require so much more driver input and attention that many of the incredulous replies are likely assuming you're talking about Tesla specifically.

I'm guessing GM Supercruise since it's the only one I'm aware of that uses eye tracking in production (though Tesla claims to have enabled that in the US just recently. Personally I'm not sure their camera placement can really do proper eye tracking). Supercruise's disengagement rate is low though, generally much lower than Tesla's.

I do like supercruise from what I've seen of it (haven't had a chance to actually use it since GM seems determined to waste their advantage by not rushing it into every car they make).

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#448

Post by vnchr » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 12:52 AM UTC

telside wrote: post #434

tomdell wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road. If you personally are a responsible driver and even a better driver with it, that's great - but most people probably aren't going to use it the same way, especially those without much of an understanding…

I trust someone posting here to driver safely and safer with it. Forget the average, how about the bottom 10-20% of all drivers? I don't trust the bottom 10% driving with "Autopilot" at all, zero. They are going to use it to go on autopilot while driving, exactly as the marketing implies. I mean there has to even be people who think the car itself is conscious. Car has advanced AI, must be conscious. To think otherwi…

I don’t trust those people without Autopilot either. Is that the point?

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#449

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

icelandicmoss wrote: post #369

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

I feel like part of the problem with the kind of autopilot crashes you describe here is how inexplicable they are to humans. Whilst humans can be dangerous drivers, the incidents they cause generally have a narrative sequence of events that are comprehensible to us -- for instance, driver was distracted, or visibility was poor. But when a supposedly 'all-seeing always watching' autopilot drives straight into a large…

> I feel like part of the problem with the kind of autopilot crashes you describe here is how inexplicable they are to humans.

I don't see why these are inexplicable to humans. It's certainly no more difficult to explain than, say, a (non-adaptive) cruise control in a car from 2000 doing the same thing.

> Whilst humans can be dangerous drivers, the incidents they cause generally have a narrative sequence of events that are comprehensible to us -- for instance, driver was distracted, or visibility was poor.

But that is arguably a sufficient explanation for these Tesla crashes as well. The driver being distracted or inattentive or unable to see clearly is a requirement for all of these Tesla crashes, as far as I know.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#450

Post by tshaddox » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:04 AM UTC

jumpkick wrote: post #411

bit_logic wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to add a new level 2 assisted driving skills section to driving tests. Level 2 can be safer but it really requires understanding how level 2 works and limitations. For example, when I use level 2 (mine is Honda but applies to other level 2 as well since they mostly share the same vendor), these are the rules I follow: - Car switching in/out of my lane, I manually take over - Tight curve in the freeway…

If level 2 requires such handholding, what’s the point? Seems to me like it just leads to a false sense of security, giving drivers the feeling that they can trust the self-driving system a lot more than they safely can.

The point is that it makes driving on the highway easier, just like automatic transmissions, power steering, etc. I'm sure early critics of all of these technologies have said things like "but if the driver doesn't need to spend mental and physical energy to that this they will stop paying attention to the road and will be less safe."