U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#381

Post by MR4D » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #318

MR4D wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car that beeps when I drift out of lane, or beeps when I go too fast before a curve, or beeps like hell if I cross over the center median would be hugely useful, because a record of every warning would be there, whether correct or not. Conversely, if it didn't warn me right before an accident, then the absence of that warning would be useful too. All of that information should be put back into the model based on cr…

The new Toyota RAV4's have this feature-- if you go out of bounds in your lane they beep and the steer5ing wheel gives a bit of resistance. It also reads the speed limit signs and places a reminder in the display. I think it can brake if it detects something in front of it, but I'm not certain.

Many other cars do as well.

My main point (perhaps buried more than it should have been) is that by centralizing accident data along with whether an alert went off (or not), and sharing that with all automobile manufacturers can help this process proceed better.

Right now the data is highly fragmented and there is not really a common objective metric by which to make decisions to improve models.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#382

Post by nickik » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

rvz wrote: post #31

Did I not just say this before? [0] [1] [2], seems like the safety probe formally agrees with my (and many other's) concerns over the deceptive advertising of the FSD package and its safety risks towards other drivers. Perhaps this is for the best. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27996321 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27863941 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28053883

That is literally not what this is about.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#383

Post by nexuist » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #368

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

> my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things I would be terrified to share the road with someone of this mindset. Your vehicle is a lethal weapon when you are driving it around (assisted or otherwise). At no point can someone claim that a tesla vehicle circa today is able to completely assume the duty of driving. You are still 100% responsible for everything that happens in and around that car. You ha…

This...is entirely the point OP is making. You get more brain power to watch out for the semi jackknifing into you, the car switching lanes without signaling, the truck about to lose a bucket or chair from its bed. This is stuff you may not catch when you're spending your brain power focusing on staying between the lanes and keeping your distance between the car in front.

When you automate away the mundane, exceptions are much easier to catch.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#384

Post by yumraj » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

It is possible that you've learnt to drive like that and that it works for you.

But, I feel that this depends on the type of driver and their personality. I, for on, have never felt comfortable with cruise controls, even adaptive ones, let alone partial self-driving. I had always found that I am more comfortable when I was driving rather than trying to make sure that the adaptive cruise control is able to make a complete stop in case of emergencies. Perhaps I'm just a little untrusting and paranoid :).

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#385

Post by bit_logic » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

I think we need to add a new level 2 assisted driving skills section to driving tests. Level 2 can be safer but it really requires understanding how level 2 works and limitations. For example, when I use level 2 (mine is Honda but applies to other level 2 as well since they mostly share the same vendor), these are the rules I follow:

- Car switching in/out of my lane, I manually take over

- Tight curve in the freeway, manually take over

- Very frequently check the dashboard indicator that shows if the sensors "sees" the car front or not

- Anything unusual like construction, cones, car on shoulder, manually take over

- Anything that looks difficult like weird merging lanes, manually take over

- Any bad weather or condition like sun directly in front, manual drive

- Frequently adjusting max speed setting on ACC. It's safer to not be too much above the prevailing speeds. Otherwise, if ACC suddenly becomes blind, it can accelerate dangerously as it tries to reach max set speed.

- I don't trust lane keep much, it's mostly a backup for my own steering and making my arms less tired turning the wheel

The key thing is to recognize just how dumb this technology is. It's not smart, it's not AI. It's just a bit above the old cruise control. With that mindset it can be used safely.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#386

Post by ggreer » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

ra7 wrote: post #310

wilg wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is Teslas are no safer than any other vehicles in its class ($40k+). Would another way of saying this be that they are as safe as other vehicles in that class? And that therefore Autopilot is not more unsafe than driving those other cars?

I would probably agree, but I also think it’s a case of “need more data”. We should really compare Autopilot with its competitors like GM’s Super Cruise or Ford’s Blue Cruise, both of which offer more capabilities than Autopilot. That will show if Tesla’s driver assist system is more or less safe than their competitors product.

What capabilities does GM or Ford have that Tesla doesn't? Neither GM nor Ford have rolled out automatic lane changing. Teslas have been doing that since 2019.

The reason GM's Super Cruise got a higher rating by Consumer Reports was because CR didn't even test the capabilities that only Tesla had (such as automatic lane change and taking offramps/onramps). Also, the majority of the evaluation criteria weren't about capabilities. eg: "unresponsive driver", "clear when safe to use", and "keeping the driver engaged".[1]

1. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/cadillac-super-cr...

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#387

Post by yawaworht1978 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #45

mrfusion wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be curious if there are studies out there on how to do automated assists in machines that require vigilance that don’t have this problem.

Both airplanes and trains have automated “assist.” At least in the case of WMATA they give up on automatic train control after a fatal crash.

The difference is, they have traffic controllers and the train have their own dedicated rails, almost no obstructions and a train into train crash danger situation rarely arises. The planes have a lot of maneuvering space to all sides.

Car traffic and streets are more dense and often have humans crossing them without regards to laws, bicycles, motorbikes, road construction and bad weather.

Not saying one auto pilot system is better than the other, however, they operate in different environments.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#388

Post by brandmeyer » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

xsmasher wrote: post #359

WA wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Risk compensation is fascinating; driving with a bike helmet causes the biker and drivers around the biker to behave more dangerously. Do you have a truly reliable source for that? Because I hear this statement once in a while, and it feels flawed. A helmet protects you from severe head injury if you are in an accident. There are more reasons for accidents than reckless car drivers. For example: - Bad weather - Dri…

Parent did not say that helmets make you less safe. They said that helmets make drivers around the biker behave more dangerously. https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet...

3.5 inches on an average of ~1 meter was the measurement, in a study that a single researcher performed using himself as the rider.

This result is both weakly supported and small, and it shouldn't be considered actionable.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#389

Post by oaw-bct-ar-bamf » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

icelandicmoss wrote: post #369

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

I feel like part of the problem with the kind of autopilot crashes you describe here is how inexplicable they are to humans. Whilst humans can be dangerous drivers, the incidents they cause generally have a narrative sequence of events that are comprehensible to us -- for instance, driver was distracted, or visibility was poor. But when a supposedly 'all-seeing always watching' autopilot drives straight into a large…

In my opinion the underlying assumption autopilots are built with are wrong. It is assumed that the road is free to drive on.

Only when the vehicle computer detects a known object on the road that it knows should not be there it is applying brakes or trying to steer around.

I would feel safer if the algorithm would assume the negative case as default and only give the „green light“ once it determined that the road is free to drive on. In case of unknown (not yet supervised) road obstructions the worst needs to be assumed.

That’s where the ‚unexplainable‘ crashes are coming from. Something the size of an actual truck is obstructing the road. But couldn’t quite classify it because the truck has tipped over and is lying on the road sideways. Not yet learned by the algorithm. Can't be that bad, green light, no need to avoid or brake.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#390

Post by yawaworht1978 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #248

gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

Is it? Tesla is still alive because they're selling cars. It's just that the companies that are NOT doing incremental approaches are largely at the mercy of some investors who don't know a thing about self-driving, and they may die at any time. I agree with you that it is technically flawed, but it may still be viable in the end. At least their existence is not dependent on the mercy of some fools who don't get it, t…

Would be interesting to know how many buy based on the fsd hype(including the ones who don't pay for the package) and how many buy because of the "green" factor. However many there are who buy because of the fsd promise, all that revenue is coming from vaporware (beta ware at best) and is possible due to lack of regulatory enforcement. History shows that the longer the self regulatory entities take the p, the harder the regulatory hammer comes down eventually.