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Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

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Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#151
post #90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that billed as a serious gaming GPU? I don't remember the i740 as anything other than a low-budget option.

That's how it turned out in practice, but it was supposed to be a serious competitor AFAIK. Here's an old review: https://www.anandtech.com/show/202/7

It's kind of amazing to me that I never really encountered or read about the i740. I got really into PC gaming in 1997, we got internet that same year so I read a ton and was hyper aware of the various hardware that was released, regardless of whether I could actually own any of it (spoiler, as a ~11 year old, no I could not). How did this sneak by me?

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#152
post #106
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup; three other points I'd add: 1) I hate to say "year of desktop Linux" like every year, but with the Steam Deck release later this year, and Valve's commitment to continue investing and collaborating on Proton to ensure wide-range game support; Linux gaming is going to grow substantially throughout 2022, if only due to the new devices added by Steam Decks. Intel has always had fantastic Linux video driver support.…

Steam will hardly change the 1% status of GNU/Linux desktop. Many forget that most studios don't bother to port their Android games to GNU/Linux, which are mostly written using the NDK, so plain ISO C and C++, GL, Vulkan, OpenSL,..., yet no GNU/Linux, because the market just isn't there.

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but it's pretty rare for people to port their mobile game to PC even if using Unity and all you have to do is figure out the controls. Which you've probably got a beta version of just to develop the game.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ROCm supports Vega, Vega 7nm, and CDNA just fine. The issue is that AMD has split their compute into two categories: * RDNA -- consumer cards. A new ISA with new compilers / everything. I don't think its reasonable to expect AMD's compilers to work on RDNA, when such large changes have been made to the architecture. (32-wide instead of 64-wide. 1024 registers. Etc. etc.) * CDNA -- based off of Vega's ISA. Despite bei…

There's unofficial support in the rocm-4.3.0 math-libs for gfx1030 (6800 / 6800 XT / 6900 XT). rocBLAS also includes gfx1010, gfx1011 and gfx1012 (5000 series). If you encounter any bugs in the {roc,hip}{BLAS,SPARSE,SOLVER,FFT} stack with those cards, file GitHub issues on the corresponding project. I have not seen any problems with those cards in BLAS or SOLVER, though they don't get tested as much as the officially…

I've mentioned this on other forums, but it would help to have some kind of easily visible, public tracker for this progress. Even a text file, set of GitHub issues or project board would do.

Why? Because as-is, most people still believe support for gfx1000 cards is non-existent in any ROCm library. Of course that's not the case as you've pointed out here, but without any good sign of forward progress, your average user is going to assume close to zero support. Vague comments like https://github.com/RadeonOpenCompute/ROCm/issues/1542 are better than nothing, but don't inspire that much confidence without some more detail.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aurora was supposed to be delivered in 2018: https://www.nextplatform.com/2018/07/27/end-of-the-line-for-... After it was delayed, Intel said that 2020 was when they'd be ready. Spoiler alert: they aren't: https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/doe-confirms-auro... We're now looking at 2022 as the new "deadline", but we know that Intel has enough clout to force a new deadline as necessary. They've already slipped…

Edit: Okay I had it slightly wrong, rewritten. Aurora was originally slated to use Phi chips, which are an unrelated architecture to these GPUs. The delays there don't say much about problems actually getting this new architecture out. It's more that they were halfway through making a supercomputer and then started over. I could probably pin the biggest share of the blame on 10nm problems, which are irrelevant to thi…

> I could probably pin the biggest share of the blame on 10nm problems, which are irrelevant to this architecture.

I doubt that.

If Xeon Phi were a relevant platform, Intel could have easily kept it... continuing to invest into the platform and make it into 7nm like the rest of Aurora's new design.

Instead, Intel chose to build a new platform from its iGPU architecture. So right there, Intel made a fundamental shift in the way they expected to build Aurora.

I don't know what kind of internal meetings Intel had to choose its (mostly untested) iGPU platform over its more established Xeon Phi line, but that's quite a dramatic change of heart.

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Don't get me wrong. I'm more inclined to believe in Intel's decision (they know more about their market than I do), but its still a massive shift in architecture... with a huge investment into a new software ecosystem (DPC++, OpenMP, SYCL, etc. etc.), a lot of which is largely untested in practice (DPC++ is pretty new, all else considered).

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> As far as this architecture goes, when they announced Aurora was switching, they announced 2021. That schedule, looking four years out for a new architecture, has only had one delay of an extra 6 months.

That's fair. But the difference between Aurora-2018 vs Aurora-2021 is huge.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#155
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem for AMD especially Probably not. AMD has had their N7/N6 orders in for years. They're just budging in line with their superior firepower. Intel even bought out first dibs on TSMC 3nm out from under Apple. There's no evidence this is happening and people with TSMC experience say it's not happening. Nvidia and especially AMD took a risk not being in the fabrication business Yes, and it paid off dramat…

Do you have sources for any of your claims? Other than going fabless being a fantastic way to cut costs and management challenges, but increase longterm supply line risk, none of that is anything that I've heard. Here are sources for my claims. AMD on TSMC 3nm for Zen5. Will be squeezed by Intel and Apple- https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-3nm-zen5-apus-codenamed-stri... Intel consuming a good portion of TSMC 3nm- http…

> Will be squeezed by Intel and Apple

This doesn't really work. If there is more demand, they'll build more fabs. It doesn't happen overnight -- that's why we're in a crunch right now -- but we're talking about years of lead time here.

TSMC is also not stupid. It's better for them for their customers to compete with each other instead of having to negotiate with a monopolist, so their incentive is to make sure none of them can crush the others.

> I see zero upside with these developments for AMD, and to a lesser degree, Nvidia

If Intel uses its own fabs, Intel makes money and uses the money to improve Intel's process which AMD can't use. If Intel uses TSMC's fabs, TSMC makes money and uses the money to improve TSMC's process which AMD does use.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#156
post #128
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steam will hardly change the 1% status of GNU/Linux desktop. Many forget that most studios don't bother to port their Android games to GNU/Linux, which are mostly written using the NDK, so plain ISO C and C++, GL, Vulkan, OpenSL,..., yet no GNU/Linux, because the market just isn't there.

The first wave of Steam Decks sold out in minutes. They're now pushing back delivery to Q2 2022. The demand for the device is pretty significant; not New Console large, but its definitely big enough to be visible in the Steam Hardware Survey upon release later this year, despite the vast size of Steam's overall playerbase. Two weeks ago, the Hardware Survey reported Linux breaching 1% for the first time ever [1], for…

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Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#157
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ROCm seems to be tolerably decent, if you are willing to spend a couple hours, and, big if, if HIP supports all the various libraries you were relying on. CUDA has a huge support library, and ROCm has been missing not just the small fry stuff but a lot of the core stuff in the that library. Long term, AI (& a lot of other interests) need to serve themselves. CUDA is excellently convenient, but long term I have a hard…

Lot of downvotes. Anyone have any opinion? Is CUDA fine forever? Is there something other than Vulkan we should also try? Do you think AMD should solve every problem CUDA solves for their customers too? What gives here? I see a lot a lot a lot of resistance to the idea that we should start trying to align to Vulkan. Here & elsewhere. I don't get it, it makes no sense, & everyone else using GPU's is running fast as th…

> Do you think AMD should solve every problem CUDA solves for their customers too?

They had no choice. Getting a bunch of HPC people to completely rewrite their code for a different API is a tough pill to swallow when you're trying to win supercomputer contracts. Would they have preferred to spend development resources elsewhere? Probably, they've even got their own standards and SDKs from days past.

> everyone else using GPU's is running fast as they can towards Vulkan

I'm not qualified to comment on the entirety of it, but I can say that basically no claim in this statement is true:

1. Not everyone doing compute is using GPUs. Companies are increasingly designing and releasing their own custom hardware (TPUs, IPUs, NPUs, etc.)

2. Not everyone using GPUs is cares about Vulkan. Certainly many folks doing graphics stuff don't, and DirectX is as healthy as ever. There have been bits and pieces of work around Vulkan compute for mobile ML model deployment, but it's a tiny niche and doesn't involve discrete GPUs at all.

> Is it just too soon too early in the adoption curve

Yes. Vulkan compute is still missing many of the niceties of more developed compute APIs. Tooling is one big part of that: writing shaders using GLSL is a pretty big step down from using whatever language you were using before (C++, Fortran, Python, etc).

> do ya'll think there are more serious obstructions long term to building a more Vulkan centric AI/ML toolkit

You could probably write a whole page about this, but TL;DR yes. It would take at least as much effort as AMD and Intel put into their respective compute stacks to get Vulkan ML anywhere near ready for prime time. You need to have inference, training, cross-device communication, headless GPU usage, reasonably wide compatibility, not garbage performance, framework integration, passable tooling and more.

Sure these are all feasible, but who has the incentive to put in the time to do it? The big 3 vendors have their supercomputer contracts already, so all they need to do is keep maintaining their 1st-party compute stacks. Interop also requires going through Khronos, which is its own political quagmire when it comes to standardization. Nvidia already managed to obstruct OpenCL into obscurity, why would they do anything different here? Downstream libraries have also poured untold millions into existing compute stacks, OR rely on the vendors to implement that functionality for them. This is before we even get into custom hardware like TPUs that don't behave like a GPU at all.

So in short, there is little inevitable about this at all. The reason people may have been frustrated by your comment is because Vulkan compute comes up all the time as some silver bullet that will save us from the walled gardens of CUDA and co (especially for ML, arguably the most complex and expensive subdomain of them all). We'd all like it to come true, but until all of the aforementioned points are addressed this will remain primarily in pipe dream territory.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#158
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup; three other points I'd add: 1) I hate to say "year of desktop Linux" like every year, but with the Steam Deck release later this year, and Valve's commitment to continue investing and collaborating on Proton to ensure wide-range game support; Linux gaming is going to grow substantially throughout 2022, if only due to the new devices added by Steam Decks. Intel has always had fantastic Linux video driver support.…

… Nvidia did release lower end cards that target the same market and price point as the 6600 XT a lot earlier than AMD though - as far as MSRP goes the 3060 and 3060 Ti bracket the 6600 XT’s $380 at $329 and $399 (not that MSRP means a thing right now) and similarly brackets performance, and even the MSRP was not received well in conjunction with the 1080p marketing. Both manufacturers have basically told the mid and…

I've happily taken their advice and have moved to an Xbox Series S for a good 80% of my gaming needs. What gaming I still do on my PC consists mainly of older games, emulators and strategy games. Although I've been messing with Retroarch/Duckstation on my Xbox, and it's been quite novel and fun to be playing PS1 games on a Microsoft console.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#159
post #15

If Intel provides as much Linux driver support as they do for their current integrated graphics lineup, we might have a new favourite among Linux users.

Well. Every single AAA game is reflected in GPU drivers. I bet they need to work on windows drivers first. Sure they need to write tons of custom driver mods for hundreds of games.

Re: Intel’s Arc GPUs will compete with GeForce and Radeon in early 2022

#160
post #99
post #11

As TFA rightly points out, unless something drastically changes in the next ~6mo, Intel is going to launch into the most favorable market situation we've seen in our lifetimes. Previously, the expectation is that they needed to introduce something that was competitive with the top end cards from nVidia and AMD. With basically all GPU's out of stock currently they really just need to introduce something competitive wi…

Yup; three other points I'd add: 1) I hate to say "year of desktop Linux" like every year, but with the Steam Deck release later this year, and Valve's commitment to continue investing and collaborating on Proton to ensure wide-range game support; Linux gaming is going to grow substantially throughout 2022, if only due to the new devices added by Steam Decks. Intel has always had fantastic Linux video driver support.…

Intel sells expensive CPUs which are becoming useless thanks to ARM - as much in consumer devices as they are in datacenters, with big players designing their own ARM chips. GPUs are their lifeboat. Three GPU players is better than two, but I don't see much of a reason to be long Intel.
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