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Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

theguardian.com

311–320 of 356 posts

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#311

Perhaps there would be a shift in the domestic populace. For example, that segment of the populace that championed waterboarding and defended it as a legitimate interrogation method involving a little discomfort, and believed it wasn’t torture, have come to show their true colors and believe they can’t breathe and are being tortured by wearing a mask.

I think Terror Management Theory [0] explains this contradiction fairly robustly: Sheldon Solomon found that reminding people of their mortality, even subtly, increased their support for hostility to out-groups, military intervention, etc.

When it comes to COVID, anti-masking is arguably a form of coping with a reminder of mortality, by "minimizing one's perception of the threat" [1]: that the virus is "not nearly as contagious or lethal as health experts claim it to be" or "originating in a politically motivated conspiracy".

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory

[1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00221678209594...

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#312

You also shouldn't forget to hold the other powers to account that made it impossible to have peace in Afghanistan. Russia put out bounties on US soldiers, Iran armed the Taliban, Pakistan sheltered them and I'm sure China had their fingers in there just as well. The Taliban have never been the legitimate, much less the benevolent government of the Afghan people. If you've seen "The Handmaid's Tale" you have a genera…

> The Taliban have never been the legitimate, much less the benevolent government of the Afghan people. If you've seen "The Handmaid's Tale" you have a general idea of what happened in the 90's That is because the USA armed and bankrolled the jihadists who overthrew the secular, left-leaning PDPA in the 1980s. Here is Ronald Reagan with the jihadists in the White House https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c9RWtx8myQc It's i…

> That is because the USA armed and bankrolled the jihadists who overthrew the secular, left-leaning PDPA in the 1980s. Here is Ronald Reagan with the jihadists in the White House

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c9RWtx8myQc

> It's inane for Americans to arm a jihadist insurgency against a left-leaning secular government, and then tear their vestments in some feigned moral superiority that the jihadists would take over the country thirty years later.

It's weird that you wouldn't mention this important context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

> The foundations of the conflict were laid by the Saur Revolution, a 1978 coup wherein Afghanistan's communist party took power, initiating a series of radical modernization and land reforms throughout the country. These reforms were deeply unpopular among the more traditional rural population and established power structures.[56] The repressive nature of the "Democratic Republic",[57] which vigorously suppressed opposition and executed thousands of political prisoners, led to the rise of anti-government armed groups; by April 1979, large parts of the country were in open rebellion.[58]

> The communist party itself experienced deep internal rivalries between the Khalqists and Parchamites; in September 1979, People's Democratic Party General Secretary Nur Mohammad Taraki was assassinated under orders of the second-in-command, Hafizullah Amin, which soured relations with the Soviet Union. With fears rising that Amin was planning to switch sides to the United States,[59] the Soviet government, under leader Leonid Brezhnev, decided to deploy the 40th Army across the border on 24 December 1979.[60] Arriving in the capital Kabul, they staged a coup (Operation Storm-333),[61] killing General Secretary Amin and installing Soviet loyalist Babrak Karmal from the rival faction Parcham.[58] The Soviet invasion[nb 1] was based on the Brezhnev Doctrine.

Also, the Taliban started in 1994, and it's hard not to feel morally superior to people who do stuff like this: https://twitter.com/NasrinNawaBBC/status/1425139216443482112.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There were also a number of Taliban leadership that directly aided in the planning and execution of 9/11. Source? I've never heard that. All we ever heard was "harboring AQ."

The support and relationship between the two organizations was bilateral and extremely close. > Prior to 9/11 the largest single al Qaeda expense was support for the Taliban, estimated at about $20 million per year. https://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/staff_statements/911_Ter... https://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/16/911.commission/ > As final preparations were under way during the summer of 2001, dissent emerged…

Just by your summaries, these links do not seem to support your initial claim.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#314
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

regardless of whether the US had a continuous military presence in west Germany, it is implausible to me that east Germany / the USSR could have taken over west germany without starting WWIII. West Germany was a NATO member state by 1955.

There is no NATO without the US occupation of Europe. If the US pulls out of NATO, it will fold like the Afghan security force.

That's just bullshit. France had nukes in 1965, and still does today. Baring a communist revolution in France, US troops in Europe made no practical difference.

And they don't today.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we have gone from 'there were none' to 'we punished those' where next? 'Well that guy over there did worse' 'It was only 100 civilians' 'There could have been a bad guy amongst them' 'Oops I did it again' That list was wikipedia, so pretty limited in scope and skewed to cases that have been charged and prosecuted.

Military service members committing crimes during war is not new but it's far different than war crimes being ordered from the top of the US govt. The closest thing is the prisoner mistreatment but even then, those soldiers did things that were definitely not authorized.

Aren't Guantanamo and the CIA torture program war crimes for you?

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#316
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no NATO without the US occupation of Europe. If the US pulls out of NATO, it will fold like the Afghan security force.

That's just bullshit. France had nukes in 1965, and still does today. Baring a communist revolution in France, US troops in Europe made no practical difference. And they don't today.

I doubt France has enough military power to defeat Ukraine, let alone the whole Soviet Union.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess I didnt have 'its not a crime if it wasnt ordered by he commander in chief' on your list of potential excuses. lol at 'war crimes are inevitable'

I make no excuses. Those who commit war crimes should be held to account- and they almost always are. This thread seems to want senior US leadership held to account for war crimes when they never ordered anything illegal. War crimes are inevitable- war is waged by humans and humans make mistakes or do bad things to one another. Humans are not perfect. It's about what you do about them when you discover them. We have…

> This thread seems to want senior US leadership held to account for war crimes when they never ordered anything illegal

Even if it were the case ( it isn't), look up the Command responsibility principle. There's established precedent for it.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#318
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just bullshit. France had nukes in 1965, and still does today. Baring a communist revolution in France, US troops in Europe made no practical difference. And they don't today.

I doubt France has enough military power to defeat Ukraine, let alone the whole Soviet Union.

First, you're wrong, second it doesn't matter, the point of nuclear weapons is to serve as a deterrent.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#319
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people with option to choose and change their representative > holding a population responsible for the choices they make > holding the electorate responsible That option does not exist for individuals, mrtksn. The "people" on an abstract level do, but the "people" does not exist. John exists. The population does not make any choice; it does not exist: Jane exists. The electorate is not a person. The irrational way…

Populations are often held responsible for the choices they make. That's how history books talk about Romans, Greeks, Ottomans etc. It's true that individuals in specific populations don't face the consequences that a population faces but they do face the immediate outcomes. Sometimes those outcomes are good for them, sometimes bad. For example, Europeans are facing the consequences of the chice they made with their…

History books may use rhetoric and formulate expressions as if «populations made choices». But since really populations do not make choices, one should avoid throwing in one's mind abstractions before translation to the literal truthful statements, for mental hygiene.

It was not the European population to put presence in the MONA, not Richard's brother, who even voted against, to cause brexit: they are not responsible.

Surely history will act with stochastic determinism, creating maybe an aura that one may romantically depict "as if responsibility" - but in a future wave of damages involving the real Tom and Dick, they will most probably be innocent. What they could have done to prevent facts is minimal. Let us just be careful in spreading slogans that weaker minds may take literally - it would be an damage against a very real mental collectivity, more and more people seeing the false instead of the truth, using bad intellectual keys with collective consequences.

In fact, the chief thing one is responsible for in these matters, is the ongoing effort towards cultivation and refined intellectual discrimination and judgement. Little, or much less, can be done for the neighbour - surely let us not pollute his mind.

Again on the specific point:

responsibility means that somebody should respond with consequence to some event, in fairness and justice.

-- Officer Greene is a policeman. He may kill an innocent in action. He is responsible. In case of incident, he will be investigated, there may be consequences on his career, reputation, freedom etc. That "Officer Greene is responsible" is true and meaningful, makes sense, to an easy interpretation of the statement.

-- The team of Mr. Browne organizes business continuity in an office. They are responsible. In case of incident, they will act and be judged for it, as their good or bad work prevents or causes losses etc. That "Mr. Browne's team is responsible" is true and meaningful to an easy interpretation of the statement.

-- If one stated that "the people are responsible for the action of the elected", an interpretation should be provided that makes the statement true and meaningful. Good luck with it, if anyone wanted to tackle it - I do not see it easy, nor possible.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#320

There seems to be a general case of amnesia about the way the Iraq war was sold and I'm not quite sure why. While the fairy tale of WMDs was a multiyear effort the US has undertaken, first and foremost as a response to 9/11, Saddam was painted as the leader harboring terrorists and aiding public enemy number one, Osama Bin Laden and his then suddenly sprung into public attention group called Al Qaeda. It's only later…

>Saddam was painted as the leader harboring terrorists and aiding public enemy number one, Osama Bin Laden and his then suddenly sprung into public attention group called Al Qaeda. I believe this was debunked before the war started, as was WMD's (remember Hanz Blix).

In case it wasn't evident enough from this and my historical comments, I obviously whole heartedly agree.

But that doesn't change the fact, this is who he and his regime was marketed as to Americans in the 2.5 years post 9/11 as the basis for war.

For Americans, and especially the military, this guy helped cause 9/11, therefore he should be hunted and die. All the others... collateral damage.

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