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Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

cato-at-liberty.org

201–210 of 241 posts

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#201
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public. Are we allowed to include universities?

Hm, interesting question. I was thinking specifically of primary education, most people never go to a private college and it's a very different situation. For example, my wife is a teacher, and one of her biggest challenges is dealing with kids with severe behavior problems. They disrupt the entire class, but these kids still need an education. If you remove those kids from the class the rest of the kids benefit, but…

Nobody is arguing that there shouldn't still be public funding of education. If I had a kid in special ed I'd want to send him/her to the best school possible for his/her unique challenges Right now the only option is public school unless you can afford massive private school tuition.

With more private schools, smaller, more specialized schools would develop. Someone passionate about teaching special ed would have the chance to make such a profound difference in this setting compared to the public school status quo.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#202
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public. Are we allowed to include universities?

Hm, interesting question. I was thinking specifically of primary education, most people never go to a private college and it's a very different situation. For example, my wife is a teacher, and one of her biggest challenges is dealing with kids with severe behavior problems. They disrupt the entire class, but these kids still need an education. If you remove those kids from the class the rest of the kids benefit, but…

If a private school can provide a superior education to non-disruptive children, and public schools continue to provide the same education to disruptive children, isn't that a good thing?

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the college level, private schools certainly do cater to the individual. I was fast in math, regular speed in everything else. They put me into grad level math and physics classes, while my writing/history/etc classes were still at the normal pace. I don't see much reason why the incentives would be different below the college level. Whenever you want to ask "what would a privatized primary education system do", y…

Except that this is _exactly_ what happens at public colleges as well. In fact, my public high school saw that I was fast at math and got me into college classes early, so it even occurs there to some degree.

By "privatized", I meant a system comparable to the one most education privatization activists push - public money follows the student to the school of their choice, which may be public or private.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". That's an outrageous claim. Take marketing of pharmaceuticals directly to patients. Unconscionable in my opinion (and many other first world countries agree). There are many limited cases where marketing is quite harmful. Indeed, we have reason to believe education is one of those cases. You simply need to examine t…

Where do you draw the line on pharmaceutical marketing? Is it OK to market antidepressants? What about blood pressure or cholesterol medicine? Heartburn medicine? Asprin? Sunscreen? Toothpaste? Dentil floss? Athlete's foot spray? Prescription meds are controlled such that a doctor must agree that the prescription is a good idea before the patient gets the drug. There have been instances found of conflict-of-interest-…

> Where do you draw the line on pharmaceutical marketing?

The line is pretty straightforward. No marketing to patients of any drug that requires a prescription whatsoever. The reason why these medicines require prescriptions is because they are more serious than aspirin or sunscreen, so it's an easy and reasonable line to draw. Marketing to doctors is fine (i.e. the market actors who have the base knowledge necessary to make reasonably informed decisions). There are plenty of policy arguments to be found on why direct marketing of pharmaceuticals is not a net win. There's a reason why it only happens in the United States and New Zealand.

> If you are seriously worried about a highly educated segment of society being misled by a simple numerical trick like the one you describe, there must be no hope whatsoever for humanity if the only people we can trust to watch commercials are people with a Ph.D in stats.

The same arguments were made about predatory lending agreements and similarly misleading financial mechanisms. Society has come down in large part against these things, rejecting the idea that the consumer is wholly responsible to educate themselves. Marketing with law schools is a serious problem and the ABA is currently under investigation by several senators on this issue.

> If someone has not become well acquainted with the sorts of semi-misleading things mentioned in ads by the time he/she is an adult, something is seriously wrong, and the sort of paternalistic society needed to protect this person from him/herself is unacceptably oppressive to everyone else's freedom.

Sounds great on paper, but like most arguments of this type it doesn't hold up. In reality you've got people with average college educations going up against PhDs in finance, economics, psychology, etc. Companies can afford to pay these people huge salaries in order to increase sales, while the consumers are just regular people who get home after a hard days work and don't want to spend the balance of their free time on figuring out how the business execs are trying to trip them up. The bottom line is that in this country and others companies don't have the absolute freedom to represent their product how they want. As a practical consideration consumers don't have the time to educate themselves to the proper level and so regulation stops companies from taking advantage of consumers.

The argument that typically comes back is nanny state, etc, etc, etc. But I find it telling that it is only the people with the ability and education to combat predatory practices that make this argument. In reality America is composed of a diverse set of people, some with education, some without, some native speakers, some not. Some regulation to protect everyone who otherwise would trample the average citizen because of greed is the right thing to do.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'd consider private if we could afford it, but it's fuggin expensive, and with two kids it's out of the question. Interestingly, as home schoolers we're allowed to purchase tickets to local educational events (plays etc.) at the same price as local schools. So if there's a special showing of a play at noon for school kids, we can buy the discounted tickets and go to it. For sports etc., I believe that technically o…

The two best things about being home schooled for me were A: The ability to work my own schedule. If I wanted to double up on school one day, I could. Then the next day I could skip school and work on a hobby or project. This brings me to B: The ability to focus my studies on things that interested me. For me, this included Battlebots (I made one) and aviation. Aviation was an early career choice that didn't quite ma…

Could you describe what you mean by "home schooled" a little more. For example:

>I was able to do things like take the day off of school to copilot with my uncle

// Confuses me because when you're copiloting with your uncle you're being home-schooled; you're not having the day off from education you're just doing it differently (right!).

Presumably where you are just being educated at home doesn't fit the definition of "home schooled"?

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't the more advanced children tutor the less advanced children?

Sounds great-- are you going to reimburse the advanced children for doing the teacher's job? I also think that, unfortunately, America kids have an anti-geek attitude that could make tutoring difficult. The statement that "this kid is better than you, and now you have to listen to him/her" might not be taken well by some of the poorer performers.

Good attitude.

Why should anyone impart knowledge without monetarily profiting?

Let them all water their crops with Brawndo.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#207

My brother is currently working with the Adams County school system which is switching to an entirely new system of public education. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/22189278/detail.html They will no longer have traditional grades like Grade 7, Grade 8, etc, instead they will only have levels, and all students of a certain level will share the same classroom. When you level up in Math 10, you move to Math 11, ev…

Are they ignoring social aspects of Grade based teaching?

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#208

As a software developer who works with teachers on a regular basis (and one of my parents is one), the issue of becoming "too advanced" is a legitimate problem. Its the same reason why Einstein supposedly got Fs throughout school - he was bored with the curriculum, he was too smart for class. Teachers have to work within the framework and structure of the current education system. Let me assure you that in education…

>But letting a bright, ultra-focused kid master an entire grade level over the summer and then the kid will be a hellraiser in school for the next 9.

If kids fall behind or are poorly motivated then they get extra attention. But if they shoot ahead or are strongly motivated they get ignored? Chastised?

I'm interested in presenting the best opportunities for education to my children and instead of being concerned with making the current educational frameworks run more smoothly (they're not mutually exclusive interests though).

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#209
post #134
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". While your formulation is deliberately obtuse, the underlying sentiment can be quite damning for a certain kind of free market fan-boy, the kind who insists that buyers in a market are rational in some individual or even collective sense, that they somehow optimize their own happiness or utility function. That notion…

"the kind who insists that buyers in a market are rational in some individual or even collective sense, that they somehow optimize their own happiness or utility function." This is my core point as well, thanks for taking the time to lay out a better case than I did. It's rather shocking once you realize that the human brain is not rational in the way we often think it is. I find this fact to completely destroy most…

I find this fact to completely destroy most libertarian principles.

How does it do anything of the sort? The most fundamental libertarian principle is simply that one should not use force/aggression/fraud to compel someone to do something against their will[1]. That people should be free from use of oppressive force does not require that they be purely rational.

As for the economic arguments that libertarians often use... understand that consequentalist libertarians like to demonstrate that free market principles usually result in better outcomes for most people, most of the time. I don't know any libertarian or free-market advocate who will contend that there are no pathological edge cases to the free-market / laissez-faire approach. They simply accept that as part of the system and acknowledge the role of private charity to fill gaps.

And to add one more point... while the Austrian School of economics, which is very influential to libertarians, and may sometimes be thought of as almost synonymous with libertarianism, does indeed put a strong emphasis on deductive logic and universal laws, I don't find many (if any) libertarians / austrian economists, who contend that humans are strictly rational, all the time.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, my pronouncement of it not being HN worthy has nothing to with it being from Cato. But purely with the content of the article. Let me explain. It opens with an unattributed quote. One that is somewhat surprising given what I've seen from the teachers and educators I know who have seen Khan Academy. While some complain about things like the rigor of the exercises, I've never heard the complaint about need…

The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts (like if I'm citing Chomsky for an economics issue). CATO is overwhelmingly filled with PhDs in Economics, and with my economics background, I think it's safe to assume the above article is not controversial at all among economists across the aisle and none of them would term it "purely political propaganda". You state that CATO is "purely politic…

>The "appeals to authority" fallacy applies when I'm citing non-experts

// Not really.

"Appeal to authority" simply means that it's fallacious reasoning to assume a position because of who stated the position.

To restate it, if a usually trustworthy person says some thing that doesn't _necessarily_ make that thing true. Bringing that back to the case in hand, if Cato make a statement on Economics that statement doesn't acquire it's truth from the status/authority of Cato.

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