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U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#21

Post by mensetmanusman »

I remember when Google was first presenting on driverless technology about 10 years ago, and they mentioned how you have to go right to full self driving, because any advanced driver assistance will clash with human risk compensation behavior.

Risk compensation is fascinating; driving with a bike helmet causes the biker and drivers around the biker to behave more dangerously.

Is society sophisticated enough to deal with advanced driver assistance? Is it possible to gather enough data to create self driving ML systems?

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#22

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

Waterluvian wrote: post #19
gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

I have a Subaru Forester base model with lane keeping and adaptive cruise control. I need to be touching the wheel and applying some force to it or it begins yelling at me and eventually brings me slowly to a stop. I’ve had it for a year now and I cannot perceive of a way, without physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?) that would allow me to stop being an active participant. I th…

Tesla had a similar system, and

> physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?)

was exactly what people were doing. But it's also possible to be physically present, applying force, but being "zoned out", even without malicious intent.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#23

Post by sidibe »

Glad the regulators are looking into this. It bothers me that now Tesla seems to have no liability at all for the system not working, since it's always the driver's fault for not paying enough attention.

As Teslas get better at driving the drivers will be paying less attention inevitably, Tesla needs to start being responsible at some point

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#24

Post by tapoxi »

cmpb wrote: post #17
gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

I disagree. One feature my car has is to pull me back into the lane when I veer out of it (Subaru's lane keep assist). That is still incremental improvement towards "full self driving". I agree, however, that Tesla's Autopilot is not functional enough, and any tool designed to allow humans to remove their hands from the wheel should not require their immediate attention in any way.

I think people just assume Tesla's Autopilot is more capable than it really is.

My car has adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist, but I'm not relying on either for anything more complex than sipping a drink while on the highway.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#25

Post by formerly_proven »

nathias wrote: post #10
gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

that's not human nature, that's user stupidity

The design is fine, it's all the users who are idiots.

P.S. /s. Obviously, Mr. Poe.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#27

Post by TacticalCoder »

I drive a lot across Europe: as in, really a lot, long trip across several countries, several times a year. I drive enough on the highways to know a few scary situations, like the truck driver in a big curve slightly deviating out of his lane and "pushing" me dangerously close to the median strip for example.

To me driving requires paying constant attention to the road and being always ready to act swiftly: I just don't understand how you can have a "self driving car but you must but be ready to put your hands back on the steering wheel and your foot on the pedal(s)".

I have nothing against many "recent" safety features, like the steering wheel shaking a bit if the car detects you're getting out of your lane without having activated your blinker. Or the car beginning to brake if it detects an obstacle. Or the car giving you a warning if there's a risk when you change lane, etc.

But how can you react promptly if you're not ready? I just don't get this.

Unless it's a fully self-driving car, without even a steering wheel, a car should help you focus more, not less.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#28

Post by shakna »

Waterluvian wrote: post #19
gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

I have a Subaru Forester base model with lane keeping and adaptive cruise control. I need to be touching the wheel and applying some force to it or it begins yelling at me and eventually brings me slowly to a stop. I’ve had it for a year now and I cannot perceive of a way, without physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?) that would allow me to stop being an active participant. I th…

> I need to be touching the wheel and applying some force to it or it begins yelling at me and eventually brings me slowly to a stop.

> I’ve had it for a year now and I cannot perceive of a way, without physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?) that would allow me to stop being an active participant.

That's exactly what people were doing with the Tesla. Hanging a weight to ensure the safety system doesn't kick in. [0][1]

[0] https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/28/cars/tesla-texas-crash-au...

[1] https://twitter.com/ItsKimJava/status/1388240600491859968/ph...

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#29

Post by TacticalCoder »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #20
gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

It depends. As long as the resulting package (flawed self driving system + the average driver) isn't significantly more dangerous than the average unassisted human driver, I don't consider it irresponsible to deploy it. "The average driver" includes everyone, ranging from drivers using it as intended with close supervision, drivers who become inattentive because nothing is happening, and drivers who think it's a reas…

> As long as the resulting package (flawed self driving system + the average driver) isn't significantly more dangerous than the average unassisted human driver...

Shouldn't that compared to "average driver + myriad of modern little safety features" instead of "average unassisted driver"? The one who has the means to drive a Tesla with the "full driving" mode certain has the means to buy, say, a Toyota full of assistance/safety features (lane change assist, unwanted lane change warning and whatnots).

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#30

Post by ChrisClark »

Waterluvian wrote: post #19
gundmc wrote: post #3

This is why I believe the approach of incremental improvement towards full self driving is fundamentally flawed. These advanced driver assist tools are good enough to lull users into a false sense of security. No amount of "but our terms and conditions say you need to always pay attention!" will overcome human nature building that trust and dependence.

I have a Subaru Forester base model with lane keeping and adaptive cruise control. I need to be touching the wheel and applying some force to it or it begins yelling at me and eventually brings me slowly to a stop. I’ve had it for a year now and I cannot perceive of a way, without physically altering the system (like hanging a weight from the wheel maybe?) that would allow me to stop being an active participant. I th…

That's exactly what my Tesla does. I need a constant torque on the steering wheel or it yells at me and slowly comes to a stop.
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