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Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

theguardian.com

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Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#61

Post by xorcist »

md_ wrote: post #32

Among the key figures in the design of American torture programs during the War on Terror were American psychologists James Elmer Mitchell ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell ) and Bruce Jessen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Jessen ), who were paid $81m for their work. Irony upon ironies: "Mitchell, who is retired and lives in Land o' Lakes, Florida, spends his free time kayaking, rafting and…

Something like Guantanamo doesn't happen because two people dream it up. It happens because a gigantic organization is committed to it.

It also wouldn't have happened unless there was solid political support at the highest levels. That includes not only politicians but the parts of a democratic society that isn't necessarily directly elected, within the justice system, military and media.

The system also has been held up under multiple administrations, including one that probed public opinion enough to debate closing it only to turn around and expand it instead, which didn't make a measurable difference with voters. The last part is the key point here.

All this may sound a bit hopeless, but we know how to fix these types of inherent issues in a society, by proper application of division of power.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#62

Post by md_ »

xorcist wrote: post #61
md_ wrote: post #32

Among the key figures in the design of American torture programs during the War on Terror were American psychologists James Elmer Mitchell ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell ) and Bruce Jessen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Jessen ), who were paid $81m for their work. Irony upon ironies: "Mitchell, who is retired and lives in Land o' Lakes, Florida, spends his free time kayaking, rafting and…

Something like Guantanamo doesn't happen because two people dream it up. It happens because a gigantic organization is committed to it. It also wouldn't have happened unless there was solid political support at the highest levels. That includes not only politicians but the parts of a democratic society that isn't necessarily directly elected, within the justice system, military and media. The system also has been hel…

For sure. But I think there's value in both focusing on systemic issues, as you say, and in associating individuals with the indelible stain of their own immoral actions.

You can say that the rise of the Nazis was due to flaws in the Weimar political system and weaknesses in social institutions at that time, but you can also make sure people know the names of Eichmann and Heydrich and similar.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#64

Post by md_ »

sschueller wrote: post #56
md_ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of comments detract from the horror of the crimes in Guantanamo. It reminds me a bit of when Americans opposed to mask mandates liken them to having to wear yellow Stars of David. Guantanamo detainees were tortured with stress positions, sexual abuse (including simulated rape), simulated executions (including being taken out to sea and told they would be thrown overboard), held in cold rooms, and told the…

According to the UN Assange has undergone continuous phycological torture [1]. I know the US considers phycological torture as enhanced interrogation tactics but the UN sees it as torture. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

To paraphrase @popehat, this is just how federal prisons are. (OK, I don't know how such prisons are in the UK, but presumably they're bad.)

That's a Bad Thing, for sure. But I suspect most of Assange's fans aren't upset about the treatment of Assange because they oppose the carceral state; it's because they're fans of Assange.

In other words, if you say "I'm opposed to the conditions of Assange's detention", I suspect you're not saying you oppose the normal conditions of legal detention--which perhaps you should--but, rather, that you are opposed to the fact that those norms we happily apply to millions are being applied to Assange.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#65

Post by VSerge »

I do not understand the initial statement that an 18 year old from Yemen, that they mention was preparing to start college, was "conducting research in Afghanistan", until he was arrested in February 2002. So this is research by at best a high-school kid in taliban-ruled and/or US-occupied Afghanistan, and it seems like a bizarre claim.

This article also conflicts with the birth year on his wikipedia page, according to which he would have been 22/23 in early 2002. This birth year estimate comes from the Guantanamo authorities however, so not sure whether that is very credible either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansur_Ahmad_Saad_al-Dayfi

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#66

Post by md_ »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #59
md_ wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it provides a worthwhile perspective as to the motivations of the US and what actions it considers to be important enough to put non-trivial effort and resources towards the pursuit and punishment of. "The US" is not a monolith. Guantanamo--both the rapid expansion and ingestion of likely-innocent bystanders and the torture program--was an effort of the Bush-era Defense Department, specifically with high-le…

The "War on Terror" line runs directly through Guantanamo and Assange, and I see a definite a consistency of US foreign policy across all the administrations involved throughout. The biggest change I've seen in the last 20 years is the recent (sudden?) withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. To be clear, I don't think you're wrong, I think we're just coming in at different angles of subjectivity, and the above is just…

Thanks for the polite reply. :)

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#67

Post by throwawaycities »

Perhaps there would be a shift in the domestic populace.

For example, that segment of the populace that championed waterboarding and defended it as a legitimate interrogation method involving a little discomfort, and believed it wasn’t torture, have come to show their true colors and believe they can’t breathe and are being tortured by wearing a mask.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#68

Post by AmericanChopper »

blunte wrote: post #2

Key figures in US military and US leadership need to be held accountable. Same as with CEOs, if you only punish the organization and not specifically the leaders, there is no disincentive to doing it again. Clearly the US is exempt from the war crimes laws, and that needs to change. But it would require leaders of other major powers/countries to push for this. But… this will never happen because almost no leader want…

The concept of an international criminal court itself is an affront to national sovereignty, and isn’t very widely supported. Among those who go along with it, they tend to stop once it creates an issue for them.

The ICC primarily prosecutes the war crimes of war losers. They’ve convicted some Nazis, some Serbs, and a few African war lords here and there. But it’s silly to presume they have authority over any nation that exists with even a modicum of national security.

You won’t see George Bush, or any other US official before The Hague for the same reason you won’t see Xi Jinping, or Putin, or Netanyahu, or Tony Blair, or Ali Khamenei, or Rodrigo Duterte… there.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#69

Post by guerrilla »

xorcist wrote: post #61
md_ wrote: post #32

Among the key figures in the design of American torture programs during the War on Terror were American psychologists James Elmer Mitchell ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Elmer_Mitchell ) and Bruce Jessen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Jessen ), who were paid $81m for their work. Irony upon ironies: "Mitchell, who is retired and lives in Land o' Lakes, Florida, spends his free time kayaking, rafting and…

Something like Guantanamo doesn't happen because two people dream it up. It happens because a gigantic organization is committed to it. It also wouldn't have happened unless there was solid political support at the highest levels. That includes not only politicians but the parts of a democratic society that isn't necessarily directly elected, within the justice system, military and media. The system also has been hel…

> That includes not only politicians but the parts of a democratic society that isn't necessarily directly elected, within the justice system, military and media.

You missed money, who make up the majority of the overclass.

Re: Guantánamo survivor on the war on terror’s failure

#70

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

blunte wrote: post #2

Key figures in US military and US leadership need to be held accountable. Same as with CEOs, if you only punish the organization and not specifically the leaders, there is no disincentive to doing it again. Clearly the US is exempt from the war crimes laws, and that needs to change. But it would require leaders of other major powers/countries to push for this. But… this will never happen because almost no leader want…

Which war crimes were committed? Be specific.
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