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The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

blogs.forbes.com

81–90 of 119 posts

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#81
post #3

Software patents are a policy issue, not a constitutional question. This needs to get fixed in Congress.

>Software patents are ... not a constitutional question

A constitutional argument could be made that software is not covered by the term "useful Arts". In fact, Justice Scalia suggested that the business-method patent in Bilksi might be invalidated on this ground during oral arguments:

> JUSTICE SCALIA: Well, if the government says that the -- that the term on which it hangs its hat is the term "useful arts" and that that meant, originally, and still means manufacturing arts, arts dealing with workmen, with -- you know, inventors, like Lorenzo Jones, not -- not somebody who writes a book on how to win friends and influence people. What is wrong with [the] analysis, that ..."useful arts" ... always was thought to deal with machines and inventions?

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#82
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computers aren't mathematical constructs. They're simply devices, like a water bottle. But what they can compute, at least as best we understand it, is bound by what is computable by mathematical constructs, such as the lambda calculus. But with things such as DNA computers and nanotechnology, could one argue that the universe is a computer? Can everything just be described as a construction of objects in the real wo…

>Computers aren't mathematical constructs. A particular computer is not a mathematical construct. The concept of a computer , however, is a mathematical construct; there are no physical characteristics necessary to identify something as a "computer" for the purposes of e.g. arithmetic coding. I could perform arithmetic coding with nothing but a pen and an extremely large amount of paper.

I could perform arithmetic coding with nothing but a pen and an extremely large amount of paper.

BUT a pen and paper. A patent wouldn't be just the algorithm, but also a writing device and paper.

Everything is a theoretical until you do it in practice. You can't patent a cool 3D rendering algorithm. But you can patent a device that uses it and renders the output to a computer screen. This is how patents are written.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#83
post #67
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that accurate in this case? My understanding is that the majority of the time, SCOTUS interprets the constitutionality of laws.

In many cases the any court (in almost any country influenced by the French law) interprets the laws and confirms if the 'new laws' is consistent with the 'old laws/ more basic laws' and not in violation with the basic premise of the constitutions. Of course this is a over-simplification but this is at the most basic the function of the courts.

But I believe the US uses Common Law (English) and not Civil law (France and many other places) system for these matters. So judge can in the US (btw IANAL) decide if a law is valid or not based on constitutionality and previous laws.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#84
post #73
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just because Congress is incompetent doesn't mean we should put it on SCOTUS to fix our problems for us. Congress never passed a law allowing software patents, though. It was the courts (but only the lower courts, never the Supreme Court) which historically interpreted the old patent laws (written before the age of computers) to apply to software -- I don't know of any parts of Title 35 which cover software specific…

Nonetheless, there are two separate and completely orthogonal questions here. 1. Is it good policy to allow software to be patentable, and 2. Does existing law allow for software to be patentable? I am fairly agnostic on question one, and about three Juris Doctorates short of being able to answer question two, but it's the Supreme Court's job to answer question two without any regard whatsoever to question one. This…

Even though it may be good policy for the Supreme Court to act that way, that's a separate question from whether they in fact do operate in that way.

There is extensive literature (a subset of "legal realism" which accounts strategically for judicial action) which claims that judges do in fact incorporate policy considerations in decision-making. Secondly, it's widely acknowledged that the court frequently and with considerable influence advises Congress to change the law. In that context, it might be fine & useful for this article to speak in policy terms to the Court.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#85
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole point of the article: the SCOTUS members don't have to be re-elected and are not going to be lobbyists after leaving the bench - they actually can do such a thing on principle, that's their whole role. Please read the article.

However, that's not their job. The supreme Court's job is to make a decision based on the laws set on the books. They can't say, "Well, this version of the law would be better, so we'll go with that, but rather "Thus is what he law says". We need to educate Congress. Better yet, we need educated people in Congress.

I would argue that that is in practice their job, especially given the amount of ambiguity, both unavoidable and superfluous, in the legislation-as-written. I actually have a very strong dislike for Scalia because I think that his legal 'originalist' philosophy is pretty much like biblical 'literalism' - it's an interpretation that is (a) convenient to him and (b) denies the validity of all other interpretations in an underhanded way.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#86
post #78

As a software programmer I don't agree with this view that software patents are wrong in principle. There I said it! Software just as much as hardware can be used to "express" something new. I.e. to invent something. An patentable invention is a novel "solution to a problem which is NON-OBVIOUS to someone skilled in the art". The real issue with software patents is that they are granted far too easily. The test that…

As the article points out, software is also protected by copyright, and the article doesn't mention that it's covered by trade secret protection as well. The key difference is that patent protection applies to people who independently create something, whereas the other two protection methods don't.

So when I hear engineers say they like patents, first of all I assume that they've never worked for a company that's been sued for patent infringement (and that they optimistically assume it only happens to other people), but then I try to find out why they don't think copyright protection is enough. Someone still can't legally steal your code without patent protection, because it'll be protected by copyright and trade secret protections. Even if they didn't copy your code, but they looked at it prior to implementing their own version, that would violate trade secret protections.

In that respect, software is protected the same way that authors and musicians are protected. Authors invent characters, plots, worlds, objects, even words, but they don't get to patent them. And yet they're still protected from theft by copyright protections; you also can't just go and make a movie out of someone else's book without permission, though you can certainly make one that's similar. If it's good enough for authors and musicians, why isn't that good enough for software developers?

So to sum that up: software development involves a creative act that deserves protection, but that's different than saying that the creative act deserves patent protection, which legally enjoins anyone else from independently developing the same thing, and which gives person A the legal right to take away the work that person B has done completely independently (or at least take away any money they've made from it and prevent them from selling it in the future). To justify taking away someone's work like that, you have to either be sure that the work is a copy or derivation of the original, which is almost never the case with software patent lawsuits, or you have to argue that even though it's unfair to deprive people of their work like that, that the benefits of the overall system are positive to society. That's an easier argument to make if 1% of patent lawsuits deprive people of the product of their independent work, but it's a pretty hard argument to make when 99% of them do.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#87

It's not up to Justice Scalia to do the right thing. It's up to Congress. As Scalia is so fond of saying, garbage law in, garbage decision out. Just because Congress is incompetent doesn't mean we should put it on SCOTUS to fix our problems for us. I'll preempt the constitutional argument by saying that hasn't been made yet. You underestimate how strong such an argument has to be to succeed. What SCOTUS could clarify…

"Just because Congress is incompetent doesn't mean we should put it on SCOTUS to fix our problems for us." Actually, that's exactly how the system works. Check and balances.

"Checks and balances" isn't synonymous with "one branch of government isn't doing what I want, so a different branch of government should do it." It isn't SCOTUS's job to legislate from the bench, even if the outcome would be a net win for society. Checks and balances only comes into play here if Congress has passed a clearly unconstitutional law. In this situation that is very difficult because it has to be proven that software patents are hindering the progress of science. Perhaps that seems self evident to us techies, but a lawyer has to walk into the Supreme Court and prove it to the tune of 5 Justices. I'd rather Congress just pass a law.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#88

This will never happen. Consider a mechanical timer in a washing machine. A timer that produces a novel washing cycle is certainly patentable. Consider a chain of electromechanical relays that produces the same cycle. Clearly it is just as patentable, and could be covered by a well-written version of the preceding patent. Consider the transistorized version of the preceding, with the relays replaced by transistors. P…

This argument is simply wrong. You could use the same type of "progression" to get, at the root, basic theoretical physics or pure math. Yet, ideas and concept from these two fields are not patentable.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just because Congress is incompetent doesn't mean we should put it on SCOTUS to fix our problems for us." Actually, that's exactly how the system works. Check and balances.

"Checks and balances" isn't synonymous with "one branch of government isn't doing what I want, so a different branch of government should do it." It isn't SCOTUS's job to legislate from the bench, even if the outcome would be a net win for society. Checks and balances only comes into play here if Congress has passed a clearly unconstitutional law. In this situation that is very difficult because it has to be proven t…

Congress already passed a law. The Supreme Court interpreted it as not allowing software patents. Congress has remained silent since then.

It's the pro-software-patent people who need to petition Congress. Anti-software-patent people should merely petition the executive branch to enforce the law as it stands.

Re: The Supreme Court Should Invalidate Software Patents

#90
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Computers aren't mathematical constructs. A particular computer is not a mathematical construct. The concept of a computer , however, is a mathematical construct; there are no physical characteristics necessary to identify something as a "computer" for the purposes of e.g. arithmetic coding. I could perform arithmetic coding with nothing but a pen and an extremely large amount of paper.

I could perform arithmetic coding with nothing but a pen and an extremely large amount of paper. BUT a pen and paper. A patent wouldn't be just the algorithm, but also a writing device and paper. Everything is a theoretical until you do it in practice. You can't patent a cool 3D rendering algorithm. But you can patent a device that uses it and renders the output to a computer screen. This is how patents are written.

> A patent wouldn't be just the algorithm, but also a writing device and paper.

Well, yes, and if the patent says "a writing device and paper" it might be valid, because paper is a specific construct, and the patent obviously does not cover such things as e.g. a piece of cloth.

Why do you use bzip2 and not bzip? Well, because arithmetic coding is covered by a supposedly valid patent. However, bzip can be executed by hand, or on any multitude of devices satisfying the requirements for Turing-completeness. The idea that a patent should preclude the writing of bzip, a purely mathematical construct, is absurd. bzip runs on an abstract device.

You could, for instance, specify a specific processor in the patent, but this is not done. You could not, however, specify a processor architecture, because this is also a mathematical construct, which can be carried out on paper.

Let me give you an example: My uncle knows that a cell phone is a computer. How? Well, I told him, and I'm a researcher. How do I know? Well, originally, some professor told me, and he's a professor. How does he know? Well, he or his colleague studied the literature indicating that an ARM processor is Turing-complete... which, at the end of the day, is a totally mathematical consideration, independent of the physical world except perhaps the brains which analyze it.

>But you can patent a device that uses it and renders the output to a computer screen.

No, because each independent part of this is some prior art. The representation of data on silicon is long since public domain, the display of silicon data on a screen is long since public domain, the x86 architecture and the GPU architecture are mathematical, and the algorithm itself is mathematical, and the combination of these is not itself novel or interesting: it is not even performed except by the end user, who must merely double-click a game icon and shuffle some bits around with a mouse.

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