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The Bullshit

walterkirn.substack.com

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Re: The Bullshit

#11

Post by brundolf »

tomnipotent wrote: post #6

> but it isn’t the news and it hasn’t been for ages. I have a better idea. The news has always been shit. There's this weird fetish with "freedom of the press" that distorts the fact that news is still a business, run by free market forces, with the same distributions of incompetence and corruption as any free market. It used to be the "nightly news", but we now have a 24/7 always-on consumption culture and news orgs…

As with any field in a capitalist society, good things can only really come from those who care more about what they're working on than about any associated profit-motive.

I do think that many journalists in the past operated this way. They would chase a story not because it was profitable, but because it was important. Not all of them, maybe not even most, but many. Nobody goes into journalism for the huge paychecks.

And of course some people like this still exist, but:

Anecdotally, it seems to me like there's been a shift across all sectors (not just journalism) away from professional integrity or civic duty and towards cynical profit-motive. You can see it in everything from hospitals, to universities, to technical companies like Boeing.

I don't know if it's because the people who used to care care less, or because the people who never cared are being put in charge. I don't know if centralization/acquisition is to blame, or stock market pressures, or private equity, or some cultural phenomenon. But it feels like we're only careening further down this path with each passing year.

Re: The Bullshit

#12

Post by lordnacho »

rcurry wrote: post #8
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I feel a bit privileged, and in a dangerous way, because feeling like you're special can be an illusion that is easily shattered. Here's what I mean. If I was born earlier, like say a baby boomer, I'd have less education in critical thinking, but I'd also be more protected by the news media than the time when gen Z grew up. By that I mean most of the stuff in the paper at the time was down the middle, somewhat bland…

Writing off an entire generation of people as lacking critical thinking skills seems a bit short-sighted.

I'm not writing off entire generations, these are just generalities. It's a bit sad to have to caveat everything one says with "but of course there are still people who know how to think", because it's fairly obvious that certain unsaid things are the case.

Re: The Bullshit

#13

Post by tomnipotent »

brundolf wrote: post #11
tomnipotent wrote: post #6

> but it isn’t the news and it hasn’t been for ages. I have a better idea. The news has always been shit. There's this weird fetish with "freedom of the press" that distorts the fact that news is still a business, run by free market forces, with the same distributions of incompetence and corruption as any free market. It used to be the "nightly news", but we now have a 24/7 always-on consumption culture and news orgs…

As with any field in a capitalist society, good things can only really come from those who care more about what they're working on than about any associated profit-motive. I do think that many journalists in the past operated this way. They would chase a story not because it was profitable, but because it was important. Not all of them, maybe not even most, but many. Nobody goes into journalism for the huge paychecks…

> They would chase a story not because it was profitable, but because it was important

They operated the same way they do now, and worked on whatever their bosses told them to work on. It's just romantic to think they were unburdened by our mortal contrivances and somehow had the wherewithal to pick out "important" stories.

Re: The Bullshit

#14

Post by MisterBastahrd »

tomnipotent wrote: post #6

> but it isn’t the news and it hasn’t been for ages. I have a better idea. The news has always been shit. There's this weird fetish with "freedom of the press" that distorts the fact that news is still a business, run by free market forces, with the same distributions of incompetence and corruption as any free market. It used to be the "nightly news", but we now have a 24/7 always-on consumption culture and news orgs…

Yes, but journalists are usually journalist because they WANT to be journalists. Local journalism pays rates that make teachers look like kings, and local journalists routinely put in 60-80 hours of work a week. It's a job that requires passion, because there are far more of them who are making under minimum wage at an hourly rate than there are who are making six figures.

Re: The Bullshit

#15

Post by brundolf »

tomnipotent wrote: post #13
brundolf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with any field in a capitalist society, good things can only really come from those who care more about what they're working on than about any associated profit-motive. I do think that many journalists in the past operated this way. They would chase a story not because it was profitable, but because it was important. Not all of them, maybe not even most, but many. Nobody goes into journalism for the huge paychecks…

> They would chase a story not because it was profitable, but because it was important They operated the same way they do now, and worked on whatever their bosses told them to work on. It's just romantic to think they were unburdened by our mortal contrivances and somehow had the wherewithal to pick out "important" stories.

Do you push for good engineering practices at your job, even when they go beyond the quarterly business goals? I know I do.

It doesn't have to be just one or the other. You can have principles and push for what you believe to be good, even if your boss is ultimately profit-driven (even if you have some profit-incentive of your own!). Multiple factors come together. It's incredibly cynical of you to paint that sort of basic integrity as nothing but a romantic fantasy.

What I feel like I'm seeing today is that people are either less willing or less able to enact higher principles in their work. It could very possibly be a power-dynamic thing, or it could just be the spread of general cynicism like yours.

Re: The Bullshit

#16

Post by bobmaxup »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #10

These recent substack articles which have been posted to HN are interesting. Not because the people who write the articles are intelligent and serious thinkers, because if they are, they definitely aren't showing it via their prose. They're interesting because they show exactly the sort of vacuous garbage one can expect when an amateur is is trying to make a name for themselves as a writer and has no editor to slap t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kirn

Re: The Bullshit

#17

Post by peytn »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #10

These recent substack articles which have been posted to HN are interesting. Not because the people who write the articles are intelligent and serious thinkers, because if they are, they definitely aren't showing it via their prose. They're interesting because they show exactly the sort of vacuous garbage one can expect when an amateur is is trying to make a name for themselves as a writer and has no editor to slap t…

Wow, this guy must have something to say with haters like these.

Re: The Bullshit

#18

Post by MisterBastahrd »

bobmaxup wrote: post #16
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #10

These recent substack articles which have been posted to HN are interesting. Not because the people who write the articles are intelligent and serious thinkers, because if they are, they definitely aren't showing it via their prose. They're interesting because they show exactly the sort of vacuous garbage one can expect when an amateur is is trying to make a name for themselves as a writer and has no editor to slap t…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kirn

Essayist is a more concise way to describe someone who engages in long-form verbal diarrhea. It takes neither moral courage nor intellectual valor to declare oneself above the fray without describing your method for being so.

Re: The Bullshit

#19

Post by pessimizer »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #14
tomnipotent wrote: post #6

> but it isn’t the news and it hasn’t been for ages. I have a better idea. The news has always been shit. There's this weird fetish with "freedom of the press" that distorts the fact that news is still a business, run by free market forces, with the same distributions of incompetence and corruption as any free market. It used to be the "nightly news", but we now have a 24/7 always-on consumption culture and news orgs…

Yes, but journalists are usually journalist because they WANT to be journalists. Local journalism pays rates that make teachers look like kings, and local journalists routinely put in 60-80 hours of work a week. It's a job that requires passion, because there are far more of them who are making under minimum wage at an hourly rate than there are who are making six figures.

Yes, but there are barely any of this type of journalist anymore, and barely any outlets for them to be published in.

What there are are a lot of connected people who went from elite schools to exclusive unpaid internships, jobs in prestige nonprofit PR departments, and consulting firms, then to national outlets at very high salaries. Their coworkers are ex-politicians and campaign flacks, and people who worked at massive hedge funds and investment banks, who decided that they preferred punditry and socializing to their jobs.

The people you're talking about are bloggers/substack people now, and are generally denigrated by mainstream outlets.

Re: The Bullshit

#20

Post by TeMPOraL »

brundolf wrote: post #11
tomnipotent wrote: post #6

> but it isn’t the news and it hasn’t been for ages. I have a better idea. The news has always been shit. There's this weird fetish with "freedom of the press" that distorts the fact that news is still a business, run by free market forces, with the same distributions of incompetence and corruption as any free market. It used to be the "nightly news", but we now have a 24/7 always-on consumption culture and news orgs…

As with any field in a capitalist society, good things can only really come from those who care more about what they're working on than about any associated profit-motive. I do think that many journalists in the past operated this way. They would chase a story not because it was profitable, but because it was important. Not all of them, maybe not even most, but many. Nobody goes into journalism for the huge paychecks…

> it seems to me like there's been a shift across all sectors (not just journalism) away from professional integrity

It starts with the meaning of "professional". I know of two opposite ones:

1. "Professional" as in doing high quality work, no corner cutting, having respect for the problem and the customer.

2. "Professional" as in putting business first, with the implication that any possible corner will be cut, any possible sacrifice on quality will be made, if it makes the business more money.

The second meaning is what I've been seeing increasingly often over the years. It's a frequent sentiment in our industry - it's professional to keep applying subpar tooling and methods to a problem, because upskilling costs money short-term. It's professional to bloat your product and make your users pay an implicit tax, because it's saving fraction of those costs for the company.

> I don't know if it's because the people who used to care care less, or because the people who never cared are being put in charge (...)

I sometimes wonder if the answer is: none of those, things have always been as shitty - it's you and me who are growing up and discovering the world for what it is (and/or growing more cynical in the process).

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