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Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

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Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that. But there was always some travelling over the Inner-German border. Not convenient at all for those wanting to travel from the East, could lead to losing your job and even imprisonment until the West paid to get you free years later. But possible for those who were persistent enough and accepted the sometimes severe consequences. In Korea even that is not enough.

Only pensioners got an exception and could travel from East to West to visit family. Everybody else had to try their luck digging tunnels (mostly in Berlin in the 60s), over the Baltic Sea or make it through the "Death Strip" alive, all ending very likely in death or if they're lucky, imprisonment (one of my uncles and his wife ended up with a 10-year prison sentence for trying to flee over the Hungarian border, and…

Neither is fully correct.

We had working age relatives visiting us from the East in the West in the 1980s. But visa were not easily granted, not at all for people in many positions. And only for one person of a family at a time. I'm sure the Stasi checked in advance that the risk of not returning to their family was low.

Traveling from the West to the East was not free either. Officially it was only allowed to visit relatives and for cultural exchange. Individual tourist journeys were not allowed, only day visits to East-Berlin. But nobody checked very carefully whether the "relatives" were real. I had a friend of mine visit distant relatives of myself in the 1980s. They just filled in that the relationship would be cousin or something like that and nobody asked or checked. The East was interested in the money from the West. For every visiting day there was a mandatory exchange. From a Western point burning money because you could not buy anything of equivalent value for money in the East. I bought a big series of math books translated from Russian once. I fear I still haven't read them all. Maybe when I retire...

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#92
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only pensioners got an exception and could travel from East to West to visit family. Everybody else had to try their luck digging tunnels (mostly in Berlin in the 60s), over the Baltic Sea or make it through the "Death Strip" alive, all ending very likely in death or if they're lucky, imprisonment (one of my uncles and his wife ended up with a 10-year prison sentence for trying to flee over the Hungarian border, and…

Neither is fully correct. We had working age relatives visiting us from the East in the West in the 1980s. But visa were not easily granted, not at all for people in many positions. And only for one person of a family at a time. I'm sure the Stasi checked in advance that the risk of not returning to their family was low. Traveling from the West to the East was not free either. Officially it was only allowed to visit…

You could buy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronshtein_and_Semendyayev in bad paper quality. I probably still have mine somewhere... But it costed probably something like 2 day rates. So if you visited weeks over a couple of years that did not solve the problem of the burnt money.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#93

The idea of a city split into two by ideologically opposing factions, and the split being marked by a big wall, sounds like sci-fi now. Also, the idea that a physical barrier could affect the spread of information. Its interesting how much of 20th century history centers on Berlin. There's a wall museum in Berlin, well worth visiting. Edit: thanks for the reminders about contemporary split cities, sobering to think a…

>sounds like sci-fi now if you actually want the speculative fiction version and the concept taken to the extreme, you're in luck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City

Yes! Love that book

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#94
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The idea of a city split into two by ideologically opposing factions, and the split being marked by a big wall, sounds like sci-fi now." Current reality in Nicosia (capital of Cyprus, a EU nation). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Buffer_Zone_in_... > "The Turkish army has built a barrier on the zone's northern side, consisting mainly of barbed-wire fencing, concrete wall segments, watchtowers, anti-tank…

Big difference between Berlin and Nicosia/Lefkoşa. I lived for 2 years (2010-2012) in the North as a westerner and while the division certainly affects the Island, it is nothing like Berlin in the Cold War. Healing and forgiveness, on both sides, must occur before reunification.

Healing and forgiveness, on both sides, must occur before reunification.

Along with massive repatriations for lost property; compensation to the families of the hundreds who disappeared; and criminal investigations of those responsible for -- and who profited from -- the orgy of plunder and mayhem that ensued after the partition.

Of course.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current American Antifa movement sprung up in direct confrontation to a government that was intent on violating every norm of democratic governance, and forcing through regulations and laws that were borderline fascist. Trump's America absolutely was heading in a fascist direction by the strict definition of the term ("a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individ…

I thought we were talking about "an antifa vs police standoff in Berlin" 15 years ago. But if you insist on talking about America, let me cite a recent example of Antifa dishonestly labeling anything they oppose "fascist". Antifa rioters attacked a protest against vaccine mandates yesterday in Los Angeles. They sprayed mace on the protestors and one protestor was stabbed. They claimed the protestors were fascists and…

I find your comment misleading, with your article references doing the opposite of supporting your comment, especially from the latimes article.

In the latimes article, it seemed to me the anti-vaccination group was doing the attacking - also the article does not mention antifa, the only "anti" it mentions is the anti-vaccination group, who seem violently oriented in that article.

The nbc article does mention a group against fascism, but the attacking again seems to come from the anti-vax group.

So I don't see these reports as against antifa, I only see the articles supporting the idea that anti-vaxers are prone to violence, at least in this incidence.

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