Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

phys.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 193 posts

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#111

Post by giardini »

robomartin wrote: post #66

One of the things that has puzzled me for a long time is how little thought we have applied over time towards designing and building better homes. Energy and water usage are two elements of this. Regarding water. Every time I wash my hands I wish that water went into a gray water tank instead of being wasted. This water, perhaps with some filtration (or maybe not [0]) could then be used for irrigation. The same is th…

Your intentions are good. But if urban use of water is indeed only a fraction (others say 10%) of farming use then we should should first focus on improving the efficiency of water use in farming and/or reducing the need for farming altogether.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#112

Post by rcpt »

epistasis wrote: post #73
skybrian wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might look at the politics around building a desalination plant near Monterey. A lot of people are against building the plant because they think we can avoid it through water conservation and a water reclamation project. Although I haven’t studied it enough to say for sure, this seems short-sighted to me. In particular, the water restrictions prevent building more housing, and existing water sources seem vulnerab…

I don't live very far away from there, and what I've learned about local politics is that: 1) it's very dirty, you encounter the worst sort of lying and meanness from people that are otherwise normal, and 2) almost nobody publicly states what they want or why they want it, and everything is argued on what will be the most effective vicious political attack rather than heartfelt beliefs. With desalination, much of the…

> opposition is from older folks from the 70s who are worried about "population"

Absolutely yes and thanks for calling it out. Water is weaponized all over coastal California. "There's not enough water here" is a very convincing argument to stop construction on new housing. Santa Cruz does the same thing as Monterrey as does Malibu.

The results are often horrible infrastructure with septic tanks leeching into creeks etc. but housing remains scarse which is a win for entrenched property owners

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#113

Post by wpietri »

lovecg wrote: post #27
aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP's point is that you have two glasses now, which are empty. Another two to make four and you'll have four empty glasses. You need to address the reason why they're empty. You said you know the system well, so do you mind explaining?

They’re empty now, but presumably they would not have been pre-drought, delaying the point when the current shortage begins.

You can't presume that. You have to show it. In particular, you have to show the new reservoir would capture water that would last long enough to matter.

It has been years since some of the large reservoirs were close to full. Where specifically do you believe new reservoirs should be built? And why do you do believe that they will capture water that keep from evaporating long enough to make a difference during the next drought cycle?

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#114

Post by Someone »

lovecg wrote: post #27
aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP's point is that you have two glasses now, which are empty. Another two to make four and you'll have four empty glasses. You need to address the reason why they're empty. You said you know the system well, so do you mind explaining?

They’re empty now, but presumably they would not have been pre-drought, delaying the point when the current shortage begins.

I don’t think it is a given that, this time, there will be a post-drought that fills the current reservoirs. If so, if extra reservoirs were built years ago, they would have been useful exactly once.

On top of that, that ‘useful’ could have been very limited. For example, shortening a half year drought by a week would not be worth anything if it just meant crops would die a week later.

You have to do some serious modeling on expected rainfall, the costs of reservoirs and water usage to figure out whether additional reservoirs are worth the investment.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#115

Post by skybrian »

john_moscow wrote: post #84
skybrian wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people aren’t a monolith and some of them live in rural communities with severe water shortages. There are stories about people having water trucked in, which has to be very expensive. But the politics is basically that people don’t want to pay for expensive new infrastructure and see their utility rates go up. This isn’t just water - you see the same thing for replacing outdated sewer treatment plants. I don’t…

The bills go up anyway, in order to maintain the permanently growing army of bureaucrats. The only realistic way to solve it is to bring back competition. If you have multiple competing small operators, and one of them offers better infrastructure at a reasonable extra cost, people will switch. If you let them all get merged and managed centrally, of course all you get is a carefully written apology letter blaming cl…

I don’t think this is realistic for water. Economy of scale matters. Small-scale operators have higher costs and are more vulnerable.

At the small scale in the West, water comes from pumps that can go dry as the water table drops, or from streams that can dry up in a drought.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#116

Post by jet_32951 »

ericbarrett wrote: post #40
eplanit wrote: post #11

These droughts were anticipated, but here in California preparing for climate change means preaching at others, and setting up a carbon exchange. Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979. It's impossible to take California seriously about much of anything, but especially not regarding the environment: "In 1979, California’s population was a little more than 23 million. Today, it is more than 39 million. Y…

I will never take any complaint about residential water use in California seriously while there are flooded rice paddies in Sacramento: https://localwiki.org/davis/Rice_Paddies

Yes. Last time I checked, water used for rice growing amounted to 8% of all water use in California, and all household / urban use was also 8%. It is madness to grow rice in a desert, but that is California water "management".

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#117

Post by newaccount2021 »

lazide wrote: post #96
johnchristopher wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the most extreme scenario, can the US create new agricultural fields in other states, cutting down forests if needed ? The weather will change but surely the US will still have arable land enough to feed its citizens (even if they have to forget some kind of crops (pistachio, etc.) aside) ?

Yup. Or even just build a canal from the Pacific Northwest - which gets so much water they can’t use almost any of it, even damming everything they can - down south. California has always gone through droughts, and the issue isn’t an actual lack of water (from a support of the population, or even support of agriculture in general). It’s the economics of it, what is cost effective where, and prioritization of what mak…

You can't use words like "always" - large-scale habitation of California isn't even a century old.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#118

Post by throwaway09223 »

Supermancho wrote: post #100
throwaway09223 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lifelong Californian here. We're not victims - that would imply some outside actor. In reality it's almost entirely our fault. The water shortages are not caused by climate change. They're entirely caused by our water policy. Specifically: Expanded crops in the central valley (which we should simply not grow) and failure to expand infrastructure to keep pace with development as noted above. Climate change is a factor…

> Lifelong Californian here. We're not victims - that would imply some outside actor. In reality it's almost entirely our fault. You're responding to a post about wildfires. Your post doesn't make sense in context. p.s. I was born, worked and lived in California for 40 years.

No, I'm responding to a post and comment about the water shortage which mentions wildfires in passing.

You've been here almost as long as I have!

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#119

Post by barsonme »

danans wrote: post #95
robomartin wrote: post #66

One of the things that has puzzled me for a long time is how little thought we have applied over time towards designing and building better homes. Energy and water usage are two elements of this. Regarding water. Every time I wash my hands I wish that water went into a gray water tank instead of being wasted. This water, perhaps with some filtration (or maybe not [0]) could then be used for irrigation. The same is th…

> One of the things that has puzzled me for a long time is how little thought we have applied over time towards designing and building better homes. We have thought a lot, but the reality is that the market, which we rely on to drive how things like houses are built, has shown that regardless of what they say, people ultimately value a 5th bathroom more than they value energy or water efficiency. The only way to ensu…

Jeez, where do you live that people have five bathrooms?
Post reply on HN