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California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

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Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#51

Post by mattnewton »

eplanit wrote: post #47
epistasis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a very complete picture of what's going on with water in California. Even as population has almost doubled, and as agricultural output increases, we have decreased our water usage: https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's a lot to be said for simply not wasting lots of water. If California stopped growing alfalfa, a low value product that is the largest agricultural use of water, w…

It sounds like there really isn't anything to be concerned about then. "If California stopped growing alfalfa...we could probably house 20-30M more people". I'm very happy to stop growing crops in the desert, and agree there's absurd waste there (just because something can be done does not mean it should be done). But 10s of millions more people...is that really a goal, or even a good thing?

Not saying it is right or wrong, but traditionally we would use a market to decide that, where the new people can buy the land / water at a higher price if it is worth more to them than the alfalfa farmer. This adapts the goals of people based on their economic activity. But water right are a complicated chain and mostly not treated like a market in California.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#52

Post by throwaway09223 »

avianlyric wrote: post #41
eplanit wrote: post #11

These droughts were anticipated, but here in California preparing for climate change means preaching at others, and setting up a carbon exchange. Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979. It's impossible to take California seriously about much of anything, but especially not regarding the environment: "In 1979, California’s population was a little more than 23 million. Today, it is more than 39 million. Y…

> Not only does the state not prepare, but thanks to the record-setting wildfires of the past decade, the amount of carbon and soot pumped into the air has probably offset any gains that had been made. They're really just stupid out here. This is a little unreasonable and just smacks of victim blaming. The way you write suggests the California has been deliberately setting their own wildfires, rather than just being…

Lifelong Californian here. We're not victims - that would imply some outside actor. In reality it's almost entirely our fault.

The water shortages are not caused by climate change. They're entirely caused by our water policy. Specifically: Expanded crops in the central valley (which we should simply not grow) and failure to expand infrastructure to keep pace with development as noted above.

Climate change is a factor, but the fires are primarily caused by substantial mismanagement throughout our utilities and government.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#53

Post by defterGoose »

eplanit wrote: post #37
aesh2Xa1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP's point is that you have two glasses now, which are empty. Another two to make four and you'll have four empty glasses. You need to address the reason why they're empty. You said you know the system well, so do you mind explaining?

So 100% of reservoir loss is due to evaporation? In the analogy, filling the glasses before EBMUD turns the water off is like filling a reservoir during (even brief) rainy seasons.

If you distributed the total available water to more reservoirs then the loss rate from evaporation would actually go up due to an increased ratio of surface area to volume. Simple math, really.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#54

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

newsyyswen wrote: post #38
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #3

I don’t live in California but my state is experiencing the same. I love to garden, but summer has just become the dry season here, so it is pointless. You can irrigate, but the vapor-pressure deficit (VPD) when it is 100 degrees and 20% humidity makes plant growth almost impossible for anything but cacti. I think I’ll just have to move. https://www.dimluxlighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Le...

Have you considered drip irrigation? It was designed with desert agriculture in mind. Shade can also make a big difference.

My garden has drip irrigation and looks like a burned mess unfortunately. I think it is just the effect of the hot dry air on the leaves.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#55

Post by tedjdziuba »

epistasis wrote: post #44
eplanit wrote: post #11

These droughts were anticipated, but here in California preparing for climate change means preaching at others, and setting up a carbon exchange. Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979. It's impossible to take California seriously about much of anything, but especially not regarding the environment: "In 1979, California’s population was a little more than 23 million. Today, it is more than 39 million. Y…

This isn't a very complete picture of what's going on with water in California. Even as population has almost doubled, and as agricultural output increases, we have decreased our water usage: https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's a lot to be said for simply not wasting lots of water. If California stopped growing alfalfa, a low value product that is the largest agricultural use of water, w…

> The stupidest thing California does is treat water rights as economic land for farmers that simply waste obscene amounts of a valuable resource. We need to tax that economic land at the full land rents, to encourage more economically efficient uses.

Sort of. There's no useful secondary market for appropriative water rights in California. A farmer with a senior water right can't sell that right in a dry year without risk of losing it the next year, which is why you end up with a misaligned incentive that produces silly results like growing rice during a drought.

They need to use all their water, regardless of how dry it is, or they risk losing it the next year.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#56

Post by pixl97 »

akiselev wrote: post #31
TchoBeer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building more reservoirs doesn't mean there's more water in reserve, it just means there's more space to store water.

The water cycle covers the entire state so as long as you don't set up in a desert or a hundred miles from the nearest waterway, chances are the reservoir can be filled up on a regular basis. We're storing a teeny tiny fraction of all the water that goes through the system.

2 things.

One is you want to keep the rivers flowing in the first place. If you impound too much water, you don't have rivers, you have dry creeks and all the wildlife in them dies.

The big one is water rights. The water is not the states to impound in the first place in many cases. If I have particular water rights, and you block them, I can sue you out of existence under existing laws, laws that are going to be very hard to break with our current legal system.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#57

Post by nsizx »

hh3k0 wrote: post #13
joelbluminator wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't sound likely. You will be able to settle tens of millions of refugees in Greenland, Siberia etc. Former frozen wasteland will become habitable. I don't think Europe or the U.S will volunteer to absorb tens of millions of refugees if there are other solutions.

> I don't think Europe or the U.S will volunteer to absorb tens of millions of refugees if there are other solutions. Who said anything about volunteering? Europe couldn't stop ~1 million people from entering in 2015, so what makes you think they can stop 50 to 100 times that number? > Greenland, Siberia etc. Former frozen wasteland will become habitable "Billions of Acres of Cropland Lie Within a New Frontier. So Do…

Europe didn't try to stop them at all.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#58

Post by DantesKite »

eplanit wrote: post #11

These droughts were anticipated, but here in California preparing for climate change means preaching at others, and setting up a carbon exchange. Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979. It's impossible to take California seriously about much of anything, but especially not regarding the environment: "In 1979, California’s population was a little more than 23 million. Today, it is more than 39 million. Y…

I’m all for building new reservoirs but you’re incredibly wrong.

It’s weird hearing this because I live 500 feet away from a new reservoir built in the 2000s.

Literally. I take walks out there, stare at the man-made lake, walk pass by the museum where all the archaeological discoveries were made.

I don’t know what kind of subpar journalism goes on at the National Review but they couldn’t be more wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Valley_Lake

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#59

Post by tedjdziuba »

BurningFrog wrote: post #48
eplanit wrote: post #11

These droughts were anticipated, but here in California preparing for climate change means preaching at others, and setting up a carbon exchange. Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979. It's impossible to take California seriously about much of anything, but especially not regarding the environment: "In 1979, California’s population was a little more than 23 million. Today, it is more than 39 million. Y…

> Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979 Just one example of the bigger trend/policy: California is extremely averse to build anything. FIguring out why that is is the interesting part.

With water sequestration specifically, we've already built all the cheap dams. It's significantly diminishing returns at this point.

Re: California's dry season is turning into a permanent state of being

#60

Post by shadowgovt »

eplanit wrote: post #11

These droughts were anticipated, but here in California preparing for climate change means preaching at others, and setting up a carbon exchange. Not a single new reservoir has been built since 1979. It's impossible to take California seriously about much of anything, but especially not regarding the environment: "In 1979, California’s population was a little more than 23 million. Today, it is more than 39 million. Y…

Would more reservoirs help? Excess retention is useless if the water isn't coming in.
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