Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#61

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

aerosmile wrote: post #43

f6v wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I get lost in public discussions these days. Everyone is “fascist”, “far-right”, and “leftist” at the same time.

Far-left and far-right ideologies have more in common than many people realize (including the people within those factions). They are both based on the principle on low tolerance, and as such they are well-aligned on the idea of strict enforcement of their ideologies. There are some hilarious misconceptions that members of those factions have about their own ideologies. Far-left is against the police brutality, but t…

The Wilson and Attlee governments in the UK would be very surprised to hear there's a "100 year history of perfect correlation".

They were certainly leftist. Many would consider them far leftist today. (Of course they weren't, but that doesn't mean the label wouldn't be applied.)

Neither was legendary for police brutality. That came later, with Thatcher's response to the Miner's Strike and the poll tax riots - among others.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#62

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #59

rkachowski wrote: post #4

I live in Berlin, I tried to cycle home yesterday past Bernauer Strasse (pictured) but the police had completely blocked off the whole region with barricades and around 20 police wagons. I'm pretty sure the irony of commemorating the Berlin wall and its fall via people with guns stopping the public from crossing was lost on them.

Can you say what was the reason that they were there? A protest?

[deleted]

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#63

Post by Landefeld_1 » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

SerLava wrote: post #45

mattr47 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big difference between Berlin and Nicosia/Lefkoşa. I lived for 2 years (2010-2012) in the North as a westerner and while the division certainly affects the Island, it is nothing like Berlin in the Cold War. Healing and forgiveness, on both sides, must occur before reunification.

>Healing and forgiveness, on both sides, must occur before reunification. I have an instinctive reaction to that type of language now - it makes me wonder if one side has dramatically more fault than the other

'Fallacy' ? Take two opposing Counterparts, teached by history. 'Farmers and the church were the first, who thought something like welfare, the farmer were "addicted" to the help of others to bring in the harvest, often village people to construct and harvest...historical the church seemed to be addicted to grace -which the people had to obey [turns-in-a-circle] to fulfill the will of "god" (abstract: a 3rd person). So it today those two (farmers and the church) seem to be the first who drag money out of it (the social).'

A few post above someone wrote something that "'fascist' refer to Germans who didn't join communism"

And that one may say, extremists are 'well-aligned on the idea of strict enforcement of their ideologies' (Quoting).

So take a look at history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwardian_era

And add that Wilhelm II (Germany) was an grandchild of the british Queen Victoria. And, that socialdemocracy as domestic policy was concerned the biggest threat of his time (under his politics)

Bismarck (his predecessor) for example whereas is considered as the father of the 'modern' welfare state.

Maybe a try to show how easy it was to distract me, with a simple 'governments pushing their agenda a lot more strongly than the general population would have on its own'. (-;

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#64

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #53

fsckboy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the term antifascist certainly didn't age well antifa? the political left has never stopped using the term fascist as a pejorative, it's thrown around quite liberally even today

Where is the line at to be drawn between nationalism and fascist ultra nationalism? The rise in nationalism in many countries is one thing, but as that nationalism becomes stronger it is too easy to see it as drifting into fascist territory.

[deleted]

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#65

Post by nibix » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #59

rkachowski wrote: post #4

I live in Berlin, I tried to cycle home yesterday past Bernauer Strasse (pictured) but the police had completely blocked off the whole region with barricades and around 20 police wagons. I'm pretty sure the irony of commemorating the Berlin wall and its fall via people with guns stopping the public from crossing was lost on them.

Can you say what was the reason that they were there? A protest?

The official commemoration ceremony with all German top politicians took place at Bernauer Straße. That was probably the reason why the street was blocked by police.

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gedenken-an-mauerbau-steinmei...

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#66

Post by MichaelMoser123 » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

jasonvorhe wrote: post #36

keewee7 wrote: post #14

The East German authorities called the wall "Anti-Fascist Protection Border". >The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" from building a socialist state in East Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

What's your point though? That building walls is a useless endeavour or that anti-fascism is evil becay an anti-democratic state abused the term for propaganda reasons? If it's the latter, I hope you'll never look into the historic use of terms such as democracy, freedom/liberty or "free elections".

The point of the wall was to prevent the population of the GDR from running away from socialism; Between 1959-1960 they collectivized agriculture, this means that all the independent farmers were forced to join big state owned farms; the system did not work properly and resulted in shortages. All this resulted in the flight of more than a million citizens from the GDR to the west between 1959 and 1961; about two and a half million fled between 1949 and 1961; The east german rulers stopped this flight by errecting a hightly unpopular wall; East Berlin before the wall was a very open city - for example you could live in the east and work in the western part of the city. Now they had to justify the whole project with ideology constructs - and the ultimate trick was to apply Goodwin's law, and that was done before the invention of the internet.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#67

Post by blix » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #61

aerosmile wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-left and far-right ideologies have more in common than many people realize (including the people within those factions). They are both based on the principle on low tolerance, and as such they are well-aligned on the idea of strict enforcement of their ideologies. There are some hilarious misconceptions that members of those factions have about their own ideologies. Far-left is against the police brutality, but t…

The Wilson and Attlee governments in the UK would be very surprised to hear there's a "100 year history of perfect correlation". They were certainly leftist. Many would consider them far leftist today. (Of course they weren't, but that doesn't mean the label wouldn't be applied.) Neither was legendary for police brutality. That came later, with Thatcher's response to the Miner's Strike and the poll tax riots - among…

I have a hard time considering a government that ruled over and fought bitterly to protect a global capitalist empire as truly 'leftist,' unlike the UK's geopolitical enemies of the time.

It is also likely that subjects of certain British colonies would have a substantially different opinion on police violence.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#68

Post by aerosmile » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #61

aerosmile wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far-left and far-right ideologies have more in common than many people realize (including the people within those factions). They are both based on the principle on low tolerance, and as such they are well-aligned on the idea of strict enforcement of their ideologies. There are some hilarious misconceptions that members of those factions have about their own ideologies. Far-left is against the police brutality, but t…

The Wilson and Attlee governments in the UK would be very surprised to hear there's a "100 year history of perfect correlation". They were certainly leftist. Many would consider them far leftist today. (Of course they weren't, but that doesn't mean the label wouldn't be applied.) Neither was legendary for police brutality. That came later, with Thatcher's response to the Miner's Strike and the poll tax riots - among…

My bad, I meant to say far-left instead of leftist. Hopefully that sentiment is evident throughout the rest of my comment.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#69

Post by cronix » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

aerosmile wrote: post #43

f6v wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I get lost in public discussions these days. Everyone is “fascist”, “far-right”, and “leftist” at the same time.

Far-left and far-right ideologies have more in common than many people realize (including the people within those factions). They are both based on the principle on low tolerance, and as such they are well-aligned on the idea of strict enforcement of their ideologies. There are some hilarious misconceptions that members of those factions have about their own ideologies. Far-left is against the police brutality, but t…

Far-left and far-right intersect at totalitarianism.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#70

Post by buran77 » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #58

buran77 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be because of local laws or city council rules. In many cities the developer of a complex today is forced by law to have a certain percentage of the development dedicated for rental (Munich I think may be the leader here with a proposed 80% for rental). The only way to achieve this is to have the apartments owned by the developer or handed over to another management company (or investor) for rental only. It'…

actually in Germany 60% of the appartments are owned by private individuals 10% state/local governments, 10% coops (Genossenschaft), and the reminder corporations. (While statistics differ a bit depending on where you draw the line between some private owner and a corporation for auch a statistic) https://www.savills.de/insight-and-opinion/savills-news/2756... is one survey with some numbers

The laws I mentioned are relatively new [0]. So for now it's hard to compete in numbers with a century of already built apartments. And eventually all "for rent" units do go on the market for sale.

But it's also easy to see why for someone looking for rent in many big cities today it looks like most apartments are owned by big management companies. New developments in "hot" cities with high demand and such laws are owned by a management company because that's the only way it works. You'd see entire buildings owned by the developer. It will take decades for those new apartments to go into private ownership.

[0] https://www.thelocal.de/20210708/explained-munichs-radical-n...