I don't know. I do know that upping ethanol levels in gas will not make all the motorcycle riders out there happy.
Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
21–30 of 53 posts
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#22Some counterpoints to the article http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/06/five-ethanol-myths-bust...
That reads like an industry press release designed to confidently befuddle.
For example, addressing the concern that ethanol production crowds out food production, it simply states that a different kind of corn is used... ignoring that the same land and other inputs could be used for food crops.
Addressing the concern about greenhouse gases, it mainly talks a bunch about 'vehicular gaseous hazardous air pollutants' and carbon monoxide – not the same as 'greenhouse gases'. The only reference to "life cycle analysis" is a sentence-fragment quote from an unnamed study with unclear context.
And 'myths' #4 and #5, that ethanol takes more water to produce and results in lower gas mileage? Well, this 'debunking' actually concedes both those 'myths'.
Not an impressive ethanol defense.
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#23Ethanol itself is far superior to petroleum distillates for internal combustion engines, especially small displacement turbocharged ones. This point needs to be made /extremely/ clear to everyone before pursuing the political end of the discussion.
It is bad for motorcycle engines.
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#24That reminds me; the saison I've got going in the secondary needs to be bottled this weekend.
(Didn't read the article)
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#25[deleted]
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not going to defend corn ethanol, but I do think this debate is misguided. The problem is not the corn ethanol , the problem is the corn . Corn is an indirect way of converting oil into sugar. It is just as inefficient at making food as it is at making fuel (though that's less obvious because the end product doesn't have the same units.) There's a great article in an old issue of Harper's called "The oil we eat"…
you can make the same argument that diverting corn to feed cattle raises food prices As far as I can figure out, diverting corn to feed cattle raises corn prices and lowers beef prices. Since beef eats up a much larger fraction of my grocery budget than corn (and is, additionally, far more delicious) I'm cool with this.
Yes that's his point I believe. It's ok for us wealthy nations full of meat lovers. But a billion starving people say otherwise. (At least that's my understanding of the debate).
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#27Some counterpoints to the article http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/06/five-ethanol-myths-bust...
That reads like an industry press release designed to confidently befuddle. For example, addressing the concern that ethanol production crowds out food production, it simply states that a different kind of corn is used... ignoring that the same land and other inputs could be used for food crops. Addressing the concern about greenhouse gases, it mainly talks a bunch about 'vehicular gaseous hazardous air pollutants' a…
Yeah, I kind of agree on this.
That said, the guy is a mechanical engineer at ANL, so I wouldn't take it as a sanctioned response from ANL. Claiming that the other corn isn't used in food production is disingenuous by the guy, since it is being used, but just via animals.
If you look at the lab biofuels splash page (http://biofuels.es.anl.gov/), you'll see they're working on things like water, nutrients and algal biofuels to improve the process.
There's a lot of work going into making 2nd generation biofuels actually viable, using cellulosic biomass and crops that can grow on marginal land. People are even working on producing fuel molecules that aren't ethanol (e.g. butanol).
We have a saying at work: Ethanol is for drinking, not for driving.
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#28Some counterpoints to the article http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/06/five-ethanol-myths-bust...
That reads like an industry press release designed to confidently befuddle. For example, addressing the concern that ethanol production crowds out food production, it simply states that a different kind of corn is used... ignoring that the same land and other inputs could be used for food crops. Addressing the concern about greenhouse gases, it mainly talks a bunch about 'vehicular gaseous hazardous air pollutants' a…
[deleted]
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not going to defend corn ethanol, but I do think this debate is misguided. The problem is not the corn ethanol , the problem is the corn . Corn is an indirect way of converting oil into sugar. It is just as inefficient at making food as it is at making fuel (though that's less obvious because the end product doesn't have the same units.) There's a great article in an old issue of Harper's called "The oil we eat"…
you can make the same argument that diverting corn to feed cattle raises food prices As far as I can figure out, diverting corn to feed cattle raises corn prices and lowers beef prices. Since beef eats up a much larger fraction of my grocery budget than corn (and is, additionally, far more delicious) I'm cool with this.
Sure, but that just means you aren't price sensitive. By the same rationale, some people might use enough gasoline that they don't care whether food prices go up because it's more important to keep gas prices low. I spend 1/10 as much on gas as on food, so I'm the other way.
The problem with the food price argument is that it's usually put in terms of the poor people starving because food prices go up. And if that's your argument, you have several worse problems that should be fixed first.
Re: Is Domestically Produced Ethanol Worth the Cost?
#30I don't know. I do know that upping ethanol levels in gas will not make all the motorcycle riders out there happy.
Because they will require tuning? I guess this is one benefit of the cat requirement for cars, the lambda sensor takes care of that problem.