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Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

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Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#21

Post by flohofwoe »

usr1106 wrote: post #12
perihelions wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The idea of a city split into two by ideologically opposing factions, and the split being marked by a big wall, sounds like sci-fi now." Current reality in Nicosia (capital of Cyprus, a EU nation). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Buffer_Zone_in_... > "The Turkish army has built a barrier on the zone's northern side, consisting mainly of barbed-wire fencing, concrete wall segments, watchtowers, anti-tank…

Korea. While it's not in the middle of the capital, it's not that far. And the border is much tighter than the Berlin wall has ever been.

I don't know about that, trying to cross the border had/has a high chance of being shot to death, both in the GDR and (AFAIK) in North Korea. East Germany even had automated the whole killing part:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschussanlage

(I haven't found the matching article on the English Wikipedia, sorry)

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#22

Post by pydry »

xx511134bz wrote: post #8

Odd/amusing point, the Stasi referred to the wall as the "antifascist defense border". Although these days, I'm a bit torn on the term as I see rent prices jacked up across the world by whomever can borrow money at the lowest rate. The Stasi and the Berlin Wall | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxkWC6MgcQ

IIRC west germany did end up welcoming some nazis back into government positions so from their standpoint it probably seemed fairly reasonable. There were still Nazis everywhere in postwar berlin.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#23

Post by sdoering »

rkachowski wrote: post #4

I live in Berlin, I tried to cycle home yesterday past Bernauer Strasse (pictured) but the police had completely blocked off the whole region with barricades and around 20 police wagons. I'm pretty sure the irony of commemorating the Berlin wall and its fall via people with guns stopping the public from crossing was lost on them.

Thanks for sharing this story. Made me smile. Nice ironic touch.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#24

Post by aerosmile »

xx511134bz wrote: post #8

Odd/amusing point, the Stasi referred to the wall as the "antifascist defense border". Although these days, I'm a bit torn on the term as I see rent prices jacked up across the world by whomever can borrow money at the lowest rate. The Stasi and the Berlin Wall | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxkWC6MgcQ

The Russians' usage of the term antifascist certainly didn't age well, but it's worth noting that "fascists" is how all people in the world referred to certain Germans and Italians for a period of 25 years all up until 1945 (and the affected folks didn't mind that - in fact, the term was invented in Italy in 1915 and then adopted by Mussolini in 1918 and by Hitler in 1923 [0]). So for Russians to refer to Germans who didn't join them as fascists is just a continuation of how the term had been used for a long time.

By 1961, it was definitely unfair to continue using the term in its original meaning, and at this point it was certainly the Russian government pushing their agenda a lot more strongly than the general population would have on its own. But it's not like everyone was strictly opposed to it either - the horrors of the war had created in Eastern Europe such deep resentment towards Germany that it would take a lot more than 16 years to get over that. In fact, my grandpa lived until the 90s and still called every German a fascist.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#25

Post by sdoering »

pydry wrote: post #22
xx511134bz wrote: post #8

Odd/amusing point, the Stasi referred to the wall as the "antifascist defense border". Although these days, I'm a bit torn on the term as I see rent prices jacked up across the world by whomever can borrow money at the lowest rate. The Stasi and the Berlin Wall | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxkWC6MgcQ

IIRC west germany did end up welcoming some nazis back into government positions so from their standpoint it probably seemed fairly reasonable. There were still Nazis everywhere in postwar berlin.

They did. Same with the US inviting Third Reich scientists. Or BND, CIA, MI5 and others inviting HVA (Stasi foreign spy agency) people into their ranks.

What, except maybe that states are immoral and opportunistic, does these things tell us?

I am not sure. Maybe I am missing net positive things as outcomes from these behaviors. But to me neither example is good.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#26

Post by heraclius »

pydry wrote: post #22
xx511134bz wrote: post #8

Odd/amusing point, the Stasi referred to the wall as the "antifascist defense border". Although these days, I'm a bit torn on the term as I see rent prices jacked up across the world by whomever can borrow money at the lowest rate. The Stasi and the Berlin Wall | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxkWC6MgcQ

IIRC west germany did end up welcoming some nazis back into government positions so from their standpoint it probably seemed fairly reasonable. There were still Nazis everywhere in postwar berlin.

In that were the real concern, the DDR would have restricted travel from the West to the East by residents of the West, but not travel by its own residents to the West and return journeys—yet it prohibited the latter.

Moreover the DDR cannot seriously have had such concerns, since it too e.g. employed former Nazi officers in its army.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#27

Post by ArtWomb »

xx511134bz wrote: post #8

Odd/amusing point, the Stasi referred to the wall as the "antifascist defense border". Although these days, I'm a bit torn on the term as I see rent prices jacked up across the world by whomever can borrow money at the lowest rate. The Stasi and the Berlin Wall | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxkWC6MgcQ

Highest recommendation for Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck's film The Lives of Others (2006) ;)

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#28

Post by mostertoaster »

keewee7 wrote: post #14

The East German authorities called the wall "Anti-Fascist Protection Border". >The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" from building a socialist state in East Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#29

Post by fsckboy »

flohofwoe wrote: post #21
usr1106 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Korea. While it's not in the middle of the capital, it's not that far. And the border is much tighter than the Berlin wall has ever been.

I don't know about that, trying to cross the border had/has a high chance of being shot to death, both in the GDR and (AFAIK) in North Korea. East Germany even had automated the whole killing part: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschussanlage (I haven't found the matching article on the English Wikipedia, sorry)

matching article in English

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun

(on most wiki pages you can find matching articles in other languages near the bottom of the column of links under the wikipedia logo on the far left of the desktop version)

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#30

Post by nibix »

bosie wrote: post #16
zwieback wrote: post #9

Berlin had the most memorable wall but the entire country was divided by a wall as well. My mom's family abandoned their house and factory and fled to the west when the Russians took their property and punished them for being capitalists. Since the wall wasn't up yet they left through Berlin, which was like a porthole to the west at the time.

if the wall wasn't up by then, why did they have to go through berlin?

The border between West and East Germany was already heavily fortified in 1952. So, during the nine years until 1961, West Berlin was indeed a kind of porthole to the west.

The reasons why the East German government did not close the border within Berlin are complex. For example the Sowjets first had the goal to make Berlin an independent but unified city. But there were also economical and logistical issues: The border would cut important railway transport routes for East Berlin, for which a replacement was only completed in 1961.

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