Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#101

Post by plebianRube » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #83

ckdarby wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

71.744% of the Canadian population has received at least one dose 82.404% of Canadians 12+ have received at least one dose Source: https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html

So the >80% is for 12 and older. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-cover... For the whole population, it's a bit over 60% so the "misinformation" you're referring to is approximately correct.

What happens for families with children under 12 who want to travel by train or air? I didn't see anything specific mentioned for this unvaccinated group.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#102

Post by sleavey » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #92

sleavey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt the vaccines are effective at reducing negative effects on the vaccinated individual. Nothing in my comment above was intended to imply that. The specific point I was trying to make is that there is conflicting evidence that the vaccines reduce transmission. Since governments around the world pushed vaccines for everyone partly on the hypothesis that it should reduce spread, this is a big problem. The t…

The consensus has shifted to the point wherein the preponderance of evidence points to reduced transmission. Here is Nature in Feb [1] Here is Nature now [2] [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00450-z [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z

Thanks, [2] is interesting. Sadly lacking much information on the transmissibility of the delta variant, which is the dominant strain in most (?) western countries. Such information would tell us whether achieving herd immunity without direct infection from SARS-CoV-2 requires continual application of boosters forever (i.e. for each seasonal variant). I say this because there is evidence from other respiratory viruses that, after having transitioned from animal to human, they typically mutate to become more transmissible but less deadly, which we normally deal with by letting sweep through the country without mass vaccination (only for the vulnerable).

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#103

Post by plebianRube » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

cdot2 wrote: post #10

underseacables wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is actually paying for all of this? America is giving away doses, but for some reason I can’t fathom the drug companies doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. If there’s all this money laying around for COVID doses, ad everybody gets a shot no questions asked, maybe they could put that same energy behind insulin!

Theyre printing money to pay for everything which is causing massive inflation.

Officially it's less. But you simply just keep stripping out items from the CPI basket when they make it move it too much.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#104

Post by oceanplexian » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #71

totony wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace vaccinated by any race. Does that sound good? I say that in a non-facetious way to expose bias. We don't say "you have the right to X, BUT if you use that right you don't have the right to do what everyone else does." That's not a right. "You have a right to free expression, but if you express dissent you are barred from using the Internet (it's too dangerous!)".

You choose whether to be vaccinated. You don't choose race and other protected classes. You have a constitutional right to free speech with some limitations explored by the Supreme Court over the years. The same Supreme Court (different individuals obviously) who established that Massachusetts could fine individuals who refused to take the smallpox vaccine.

What about people with allergic reactions or certain types of cancers that prevent them from getting any of the vaccines. What if they need to board a flight to take care of a sick family member or deal with an emergency? I guess they are now second class citizens?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#105

Post by carthusian » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

bart_spoon wrote: post #93

carthusian wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural immunity (which I already have) provides a much more generic defense because it targets all parts of the spike protein, and presumably other parts of the virus itself, many of which hardly mutate. Vaccinal immunity targets only the receptor-binding domain of the spike protein. The RBD is, in fact, the most rapidly mutating part of the virus. Therefore it is highly feasible that ADE will only affect the vaccin…

None of what you stated indicates any increased likelihood of ADE. In fact, there are concerns that natural immunity may be more susceptible to antigenic sin, precisely because the immunity is more generic and not focused to the spike protein. This would increase the odds of individuals with just natural immunity of developing a malformed immune response to future variants. > Hensley worries, though, that people whos…

It does though. None of what these people stated makes any sense. It appears to be some sort of propaganda for popular science media. In any case, the logics of the different individuals quoted are completely contradictory, so the only conclusion is a lack of consensus, which I don't deny.

No one knows what the next strains will be, but it is most likely that the generic natural immunity is more robust than the vaccinal immunity that targets only one rapidly mutating part of the spike protein. This is what makes the vaccinal immunity, and NOT the natural immunity, susceptible to antigenic original sin.

Also, Topham's whole argument seems to assume the existence of perpetual "updated" vaccines, which is entirely hypothetical, and which I do not wish to depend on.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#106

Post by bart_spoon » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #54

bart_spoon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you aren’t. A vaccine isn’t 100% effective. So say it prevents 9/10 COVID infections. If you are in an area where your normal probability of encountering an infectious level of virus is say 1/100, then your chances are 1/1000 of catching COVID. But if your local level of transmission is higher, so that your chance of contracting COVID over some time horizon is say 1/10, then your chances of getting ill is now 1/10…

It's disturbing to me that depending on what argument is being made, the vaccines are both highly effective and simultaneously not effective enough. It doesn't get to be both when it's convenient.

Why is it disturbing? Can both not be true?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#107

Post by ghaff » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

totony wrote: post #81

ghaff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You choose whether to be vaccinated. You don't choose race and other protected classes. You have a constitutional right to free speech with some limitations explored by the Supreme Court over the years. The same Supreme Court (different individuals obviously) who established that Massachusetts could fine individuals who refused to take the smallpox vaccine.

Fair, then they don't have a right to be vaccinated or not (at least in the US). And it's false to say we "support their right." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts seems to suggest that also.

All you can say is that Jacobson established that a state can require vaccination with non-compliance subject to a fine. Given that the case involved police power and its limitations, you probably can't assume that a case of forcible vaccination would be covered by this precedent.

Zucht v. King subsequently upheld a rule requiring students to be vaccinated to attend school, which IANAL is probably the more relevant case law for businesses and others requiring vaccination in order to enter a building or attend an event.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#108

Post by jorgesborges » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #85

totony wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in quebec vaccine passports are seen in a super bad light (at least to most people i have interacted with). But yeah it's for sure an election tactic, hiding more important discussion like how they threw away their promise to reform the electoral system (EDIT: Probably because it makes them lose [1]) [1] https://theconversation.com/what-the-canadian-election-resul...

Do you hang out in an antivax crowd? Vaccine passport are enormously popular in Canada. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/majority-support-vacc... I couldn’t find Quebec specific data, but I live here and haven’t seen anything to suggest people view them differently.

Not everyone who opposes a vaccine passport belongs to an "antivax" crowd. I've encountered a lot of a variance on the issue, often in surprising contexts. I was at the dentist last week and after vetting me mildly she explained there's a faction of their practice who oppose mandatory vaccines. She said they formed a group to share and discuss the issue and engage with other health care professionals who may not be as politically astute.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#109

Post by carthusian » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

bart_spoon wrote: post #93

carthusian wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural immunity (which I already have) provides a much more generic defense because it targets all parts of the spike protein, and presumably other parts of the virus itself, many of which hardly mutate. Vaccinal immunity targets only the receptor-binding domain of the spike protein. The RBD is, in fact, the most rapidly mutating part of the virus. Therefore it is highly feasible that ADE will only affect the vaccin…

None of what you stated indicates any increased likelihood of ADE. In fact, there are concerns that natural immunity may be more susceptible to antigenic sin, precisely because the immunity is more generic and not focused to the spike protein. This would increase the odds of individuals with just natural immunity of developing a malformed immune response to future variants. > Hensley worries, though, that people whos…

>Also recent studies have shown that the rate of mutation in a country is inversely correlated with vaccine coverage for Covid. [3]

This is nothing. A single arbitrary estimator, applied to a few dozen countries (no explanation why they were chosen), shows a statistically insignificant correlation without controlling for any of the thousands of confounding variables.

Normally I would bring up the look-elsewhere effect here too, but it seems hardly dignified to discuss this tweet/paper at that level.

The authors' affiliation is a 5-employee startup addressed at an office-sharing facility.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#110

Post by ghaff » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

plebianRube wrote: post #101

ghaff wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the >80% is for 12 and older. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-cover... For the whole population, it's a bit over 60% so the "misinformation" you're referring to is approximately correct.

What happens for families with children under 12 who want to travel by train or air? I didn't see anything specific mentioned for this unvaccinated group.

"accommodations will be made for "those few who are unable to be vaccinated," such as testing and screening."