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Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

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Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#51

Post by tdaltonc »

phowson83 wrote: post #50
tdaltonc wrote: post #48

I'm curious about the middle-way chatbot you're building. Most chat systems are either "smart" scripts with intent recognition (RASA, Dialog Flow, etc) or anything-is-possible chaos (seq2seq, etc). Can you explain more about how you're able to keep the conversation on track while leveraging the adaptability of a generative system?

We're generally more in the smart scripts camp at present. The conversations are graph based, with each node being associated with code that can look at the state of the user and any input. It may be that the input is a set of fixed options, or that the input is freetext. Usually in the event of freetext we're classifying that freetext, looking at the state and using these two things to determine the output and next…

"Generate chit-chat until the intent classifier gets what you need" is an interesting idea. Should work especially well in therapy where asking the same question for different angles is pretty well tolerated.

Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#53

Post by sickcodebruh »

Congratulations on the launch! I haven’t checked out the app yet but CBT is something close to my heart. I started doing traditional talk therapy as a teenager and it never seemed to help anything. As an adult, after years of wild ups and downs, I finally wound up working with someone who specialized in CBT. She and the experience changed everything for me. I see A handful of comments here talking about how CBT doesn’t work for everyone; however, for others, it might be the only thing that DOES work.

These days, I don’t see a therapist anymore in part because finding someone who does CBT in my area and accepting my insurance has proven impossible but I do work through a CBT workbook on occasion. It helps me manage get the ship sailing back on course when a storm messes up navigation for too long. This could just as easily be done in an app and I’d certainly reach for your product or one like it before seeing another “tell me about your problems while I sit silently and nod at you” therapist.

Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#55

Post by rolucid »

Glad to see the mental health apps space expand. The problem with curative healthcare apps is that it's hard to make it a sustainable business without government fund or private partnerships. App success is generally linked with usage. The longer the people use the apps, the more successful they are. In the case of curative apps that's reversed. Your app is more successful if people don't need it anymore, which makes it hard to monetize. I hope you manage to overcome this challenge and wish you great success!

It might be interesting for you to follow the story of Quirk and how they had to pivot as a company: https://github.com/Flaque/quirk

Also an interesting read, their original Launch HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20646918

I am not affiliated with them, their story is the first thing that popped in my mind when I saw this.

Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#57

Post by phowson83 »

sal9000 wrote: post #52

I used Woebot for a while and was engaging, sometimes useful CBT. Wondering if you heard of it? If yes would be good to know how does your chatbot compare. I finished all content on Woebot and wouldn't mind going through more CBT with Iona Mind.

We've most certainly heard of Woebot. Would be really interesting to hear how you feel about Iona in comparison.

Obviously we're much earlier stage than Woebot who have in fact been around since 2017, but the mission is certainly similar. We've gone for a different tone and feel to Woe at the moment and will continue to expand and improve the product and content as the company grows. I think there's a demographic for whom the tone of Woebot doesn't really appeal, which is why we've gone for a slightly different style in our content.

Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#58

Post by phowson83 »

rolucid wrote: post #55

Glad to see the mental health apps space expand. The problem with curative healthcare apps is that it's hard to make it a sustainable business without government fund or private partnerships. App success is generally linked with usage. The longer the people use the apps, the more successful they are. In the case of curative apps that's reversed. Your app is more successful if people don't need it anymore, which makes…

Thanks for bringing those up. We're certainly aware of Quirk and the story, although we haven't as yet talked to the founders in person. Their story is very relevant to this discussion.

The points about sustainability of business model are very relevant ones, which is why we have a long term aim of building software as a medical device, which is potentially distributable / reimbursable by healthcare systems / insurance. This also opens up potentially different payment models, which can be more sustainable.

Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#59

Post by phowson83 »

sickcodebruh wrote: post #53

Congratulations on the launch! I haven’t checked out the app yet but CBT is something close to my heart. I started doing traditional talk therapy as a teenager and it never seemed to help anything. As an adult, after years of wild ups and downs, I finally wound up working with someone who specialized in CBT. She and the experience changed everything for me. I see A handful of comments here talking about how CBT doesn…

It's great to hear about your experiences with CBT and hear from someone in the ~50% for whom CBT works. We certainly wouldn't bill it as a panacea for all conditions, as we've discussed in the comments section here, and it's wrong to see it as such, but for those who it works for it's an excellent tool. Also great to hear that so-called bibliotherapy has been of assistance to you.

As you allude to, while there are many academic papers showing the efficacy of CBT, DBT and ACT, in various forms of trial, some other forms of talk therapy are not backed by such a robust evidence base.

Re: Launch HN: Iona Mind (YC S21) – App-based cognitive behavioural therapy

#60

Post by bserge »

GordonS wrote: post #49
bserge wrote: post #44

A worthy endeavour, but CBT doesn't help the physically broken. Brains break and malfunction just like other organs and no amount of telling them to fix themselves will work. I built my custom "therapist", I know exactly what I need, but it worked sporadically for a while then just seemed like a complete joke. Perhaps someone could fund a startup that would connect people with suppliers of medicine that is non addict…

> Perhaps someone could fund a startup that would connect people with suppliers of medicine that is non addictive yet prescription only, like most antidepressants, anxyliotics and DNRIs. While many antidepressants are not psychologically addictive, it's worth noting that they many cause physical dependence due to receptor up/down regulation, and can cause horrendous withdrawal symptoms. I have personal experience of…

Yeah, been there, done that. SSRIs are garbage for me. Withdrawals are just time off work, though.
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