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Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

cato-at-liberty.org

101–110 of 241 posts

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#101
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". Take an ad for the Macbook Air. It shows a stylish person happily using the Air to do something fun. Now consider an ad for a private school that shows a child happily benefitting from something he/she learned at the school being advertised. Maybe the ad shows a graduate getting accepted into a prestigious college or…

I don't think it's a binary choice. I think capitalism is great for most things, and bad at some things. Education happens to be one of those things. If I buy a $30 bottle of pills that are supposed to make me lose weight, well I lost $30 and I learned my lesson. If I send my kid to a fucked up school it might take years for me to realize it was fucked up, and the stakes are much higher. A bit of back story. I'm the…

If I buy a $30 bottle of pills that are supposed to make me lose weight, well I lost $30 and I learned my lesson. If I send my kid to a fucked up school it might take years for me to realize it was fucked up, and the stakes are much higher.

Or you could send your kid to a public school which is also fucked up, but not have any other options because, hey, there aren't any other schools around, and nobody has any real incentive to fix it up.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#102

I suppose it's a Cato blog post, but I was hoping for a more interesting discussion than just a random call for private education, with a market-will-solve it assertion. People learning at different paces and on their own is a fairly interesting problem highlighted here, but I think it's wishful thinking to claim that the perfect answer is already known. It's not entirely clear to me that private schools would cater…

You seem to be picturing "ACME Education" creating schools in the model of factories under some scary privatization scheme. In fact, the current "public" model of centralized control, standardized curriculum, and cookie-cutter learning objectives is based on an antiquated understanding of human development, social systems, and motivation. In fact, by forcing a child to endure hours of boredom and conformity it prepar…

Private schools are already widely available.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#103

Without attribution of who made the original statement and the context, this is completely meaningless. The Wired article is good, but the Cato article is not HN worthy at all. Purely political propaganda.

Why would you automatically declare an organization like Cato, which comprises a lot of living and dying Nobel Laureates (10 in fact) and read by a large number of PhDs in economics from our top universities, not HN worthy and "political propaganda"? It's a little absurd to make such a claim without substantiating your argument.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#104
post #96
post #4

Really interesting, shocking quote from the original article, but the Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News, IMO. The original Wired piece is great, though.

"Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News" As if Hacker News is somehow more qualified on economic issues than Cato, which has 10 Nobel Laureates? F. A. Hayek Milton Friedman James M. Buchanan Robert Mundell Edward C. Prescott Douglass C. North Vernon L. Smith Gary S. Becker Ronald Coase Thomas C. Schelling http://www.cato.org/people/nobel-index.html

You seem to be arguing against a point I didn't make. I didn't say that "Hacker News is more qualified on economic issues than Cato" as you put it. I said that I found the case made in this blog post to be questionable and that this political content is not well-suited to Hacker News.

I was not impeaching the intellectual output of the Nobel laureates associated with the Cato institute, but I do have to note here that none of them wrote this blog post, nor is there any indication that any of them reviewed it. I could further debate your name-dropping, but I've wasted enough key-strokes on this as is.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#105
post #50

I'm a parent of two who does NOT plan on putting his kids in public school because I think they won't be served well there (plan on "home schooling"). My 5yo uses Khan Academy and it seems to be great. Finally, I basically hate most aspects of public school. That said, I get sick of everyone piling on public school whenever something like this comes up. Public school is set to the following task: "take everyone , eve…

I was home schooled, and I wish there was a Khan Academy when I was growing up. We did use something similar with DVDs and an electronic blackboard. All in all, it worked out well for me, and I would encourage you to stick with home schooling. If you can, find a private school that allows home study. That way, you can get group field trips and sports activities while staying in control of your child's educational gro…

We'd consider private if we could afford it, but it's fuggin expensive, and with two kids it's out of the question.

Interestingly, as home schoolers we're allowed to purchase tickets to local educational events (plays etc.) at the same price as local schools. So if there's a special showing of a play at noon for school kids, we can buy the discounted tickets and go to it. For sports etc., I believe that technically our local schools are obligated to allow our children to join their extracurricular groups, such as sports. As for field trips, that would be nice to be able to go with the private school, but frankly that's the least of my worries. If there's one thing homeschooling (at least how we do it) does better than any other model, it's field trips! :)

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#106
post #96
post #4

Really interesting, shocking quote from the original article, but the Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News, IMO. The original Wired piece is great, though.

"Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News" As if Hacker News is somehow more qualified on economic issues than Cato, which has 10 Nobel Laureates? F. A. Hayek Milton Friedman James M. Buchanan Robert Mundell Edward C. Prescott Douglass C. North Vernon L. Smith Gary S. Becker Ronald Coase Thomas C. Schelling http://www.cato.org/people/nobel-index.html

I wouldn't use the present tense when some of those guys are dead.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#107
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/07/ff_khan/all/1 the very end is about a proposed private school "For his part, Khan says he’s now considering starting his own private school, as a way to see just how much you could wrap learning around Khan Academy. His ideas are intriguing: Among other things, his school wouldn’t divide kids by age; teenagers would mix in with kindergartners. “I have no research to back this up,…

> younger kids act more mature around older kids, and older kids act more mature around younger kids. We lived in a fantastic little neighborhood, Perry Circle, in Annapolis where this was routinely observed. It very much nailed the first iteration of Alexander's Pattern Language: 10 buildings, 6 apartments in 3 stories, plus attics and below-ground garages, arranged around a central circle. Those parents who stayed…

I've always thought age segregation is a small evil (not a big one, but still...). We're not supposed to be locked into our current state, but to mature and grow - older people have experience, and younger people have energy... a good combo.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#108
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be picturing "ACME Education" creating schools in the model of factories under some scary privatization scheme. In fact, the current "public" model of centralized control, standardized curriculum, and cookie-cutter learning objectives is based on an antiquated understanding of human development, social systems, and motivation. In fact, by forcing a child to endure hours of boredom and conformity it prepar…

Private schools will lead to a marketing driven education system that preys on peoples ignorance. Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public.

Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public.

That's not a simple thought experiment, it's a massive data-collecting exercise.

I'm not sure if there are any countries with wholly-private education systems, are there? Still, there are many countries (the UK and Australia spring to mind) where private schools play a larger role than they do in the US. And your fears appear to be unfounded, as the private schools in these countries range from "truly excellent" to "quite reasonably okay". Parents and students choosing a school aren't nearly as misled by glossy brochures as you might think -- the newspapers are filled with detailed comparisons of average marks in statewide tests, success in getting into universities, and so forth.

Now I didn't go to a private school, I went to an academically selective public school in Australia, but there was always the sense that we were in competition with the private schools... their mere presence drives the public schools to try to do better as well. The main criticism that I could make of the private schools where I was (apart from snobbery and often-silly uniforms) is that they had a tendency to spoon-feed education to their students in the interests of maximizing their university entrance marks... the result being that students often floundered somewhat when they actually got to university and were expected to learn in a more self-directed way. But faced with a choice between that and a chaotic American public school where the primary goal appears to be stopping the students from shooting each other, I'll take the spoon feeding and straw hats any day.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public schools are the ones who cater to the large percentage. And have no real revenue loss when they fail to deliver. Private schools do cater to a small percentage, not everybody in a neighborhood, but a small percentage to whom the school appeals. Just like any other kind of business. Mercedes doesn't say "screw those snobs. We want the masses." Nope, they cater specifically to a very small set of buyers. There's…

That's a possible outcome, I'm just not convinced of its probability. Unless the government enforces equal prices at all the private schools, via some sort of fixed tradeable credits scheme, I would expect the most affordable schools to be those that cater to a large proportion of the population in a cost-effective and fairly standardized way, and that those would be by far the most popular schools. Essentially, that…

"my guess is that the vast majority would opt for a cost-effective, fairly standardized large education provider"

Maybe, but we can observe: 1) intense competition for admission to the highest tier colleges 2) intense efforts by many inner city residents to place their kids in charter / special focus schools 3) strong correlations between perceived school quality and housing values

All of which suggests that many parents are actually quite focused on educational quality. That focus is often forestalled from becoming "effective demand" by the high opportunity cost on private education imposed by our public school system.

I don't know how real choice would emerge or how it would play out. I do know that more freedom would enable far more parents to translate their intense interest into much more effective action. It would also deny parents the excuse of poor schools, as they would choose the school, and schools the excuse of poor parenting, as they would be better able to choose the parents. Accountability would shift from procedural compliance to behaviors more likely to be conducive to learning.

Further, it would provide space for innovation. And when some innovation demonstrated better preparation for college, or graduation rates, or post-grad employment, there would be effective market pressure to emulate that innovation, and in an effective rather than formal manner.

It is likely the case that most schools would evolve to forms with great similarities to one another -- and why not, the majority of kids they're teaching are likely pretty similar on the important dimensions. The similarities would emerge after a process of _finding_ that most effective form, and weeding out the institutions that are providing suboptimal service. The freedom to migrate to new forms would constantly discipline those schools to avoid various distractions, or shift accountability. And it would provide greater flexibility to handle edge cases more effectively.

And in a more flexible system, educators would never ask to "slow a kid down" because of the problems the kid's speed poses to _their_ model. They would have to ask how to adjust that model to the kid's speed, lest they lose that kid's revenue to some model that can make the adjustment.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#110
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a binary choice. I think capitalism is great for most things, and bad at some things. Education happens to be one of those things. If I buy a $30 bottle of pills that are supposed to make me lose weight, well I lost $30 and I learned my lesson. If I send my kid to a fucked up school it might take years for me to realize it was fucked up, and the stakes are much higher. A bit of back story. I'm the…

Fair enough, but many US colleges and universities are private and are the best in the world. I think your worry about someone starting a school that is actually a sham are very much out of proportion. In today's public schools, many kids can't read or do basic math, so it's hard to imagine something worse. Also, the monopoly system is the only reason parents can't easily switch their kid to a different school. If th…

I think your worry about someone starting a school that is actually a sham are very much out of proportion.

The only concern I'd have would be with religious schools which might teach BS instead of real stuff. But an appropriate level of government intervention in setting the curriculum and standard examinations would hopefully negate this problem.

"Final question for one million points: roughly how old is the Earth, anyway?"

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