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FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

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Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft are already inferring that arbitrary software is dangerous - SmartScreen's behaviour for unsigned code works against FOSS because a project (or person) has to pony up money to pay for a certificate.

maybe this is something that can be part of a give/take relationship. allow for FOSS to be part of the signing/notrization software as long as the FOSS is truly not-for-profit (no free software for install, but doesn't work without lots of in-app purchases, ads, etc). At least offer FOSS software devs a lower cost entry for dev accounts??

FOSS doesn’t imply no-for-profit.

You can use my code however you like, but I still need money to pay rent.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe this is something that can be part of a give/take relationship. allow for FOSS to be part of the signing/notrization software as long as the FOSS is truly not-for-profit (no free software for install, but doesn't work without lots of in-app purchases, ads, etc). At least offer FOSS software devs a lower cost entry for dev accounts??

FOSS doesn’t imply no-for-profit. You can use my code however you like, but I still need money to pay rent.

Right, so you gets to pay the dev fees to have your code signed. That's why I specifically stated not-for-profit could use "free" code signing. If you're making money off of the software, pay the fees required as part of the business.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#193

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

Desktop OSes can't be fully locked down for the simple reason that people use them for programming and thus need to run unsigned arbitrary code.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#194

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

We need to legislate requiring web installs of software for all computer and smartphone operating systems. Any device owner should be allowed to run their own software on their computer. This bullshit has to stop.

IMO it should be illegal for a company to make hardware, software, AND online services. Any two yes, but not all three. It should also be illegal to make any public keys and server hostnames unchangeable by the end user.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love OSM but without Google Maps it would not exist. It’s just not all black and white.

Actually , OSM was launched before Google Maps, in August 2004, while Google Maps were launched only in February 2005, six months later.

I enjoyed your pedantry :) that’s fair enough, but I maintain that without Maps it would not exist in its current state as a reliable alternative to it. Just like I maintain that without Google Search we would not have Bing.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The possibility of OS vendors forcing users to only install software from their walled gardens is the reason Valve started to support Linux, created their own Linux distro (Steam OS, now based on Arch Linux) and ultimately why Steam Deck was built. IIRC the main trigger was Windows 8 that back then had a strong push to only use Windows Store to install software. Valve could not conceivably continue doing business if…

I'm happy with what Valve is doing now, but as a whole, the fact that Steam OS is a Linux distro doesn't necessarily mean that Steam OS / Steam Deck won't become locked down in the same manner in the future. Android itself is open source and Linux-based.

Valve have been pretty good about sticking to their "hackable" guns so far. With exception to the Link, everything of theirs is abnormally tweakable. Newell also seems to understand how tenuous PC gamer loyalty can be (hell, it could be argued that he sowed the seeds of that mentality).

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#197

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

Can one just make an app that doesn't show those links if the viewer is coming from a Google corporate IP?

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#198

This is a perfect example of a line having to be drawn somewhere, but wherever you draw it is never going to be perfect in every case. First of all -- app stores need to make money or at least break even. They cost a lot of money to run. So app stores take a cut of all transactions. If they let developers implement their own payment mechanisms, either in-app or with a single link, then developers will make every app…

> First of all -- app stores need to make money or at least break even. No, they don't. The moment google and apple designed their phone os to favor the official app store over 3rd party, they lost the ability to make this argument. > They cost a lot of money to run. So app stores take a cut of all transactions. If they let developers implement their own payment mechanisms, either in-app or with a single link, then d…

[deleted]

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The possibility of OS vendors forcing users to only install software from their walled gardens is the reason Valve started to support Linux, created their own Linux distro (Steam OS, now based on Arch Linux) and ultimately why Steam Deck was built. IIRC the main trigger was Windows 8 that back then had a strong push to only use Windows Store to install software. Valve could not conceivably continue doing business if…

Yeah-- I thought SteamOS was mostly dead, sitting on a shelf "just in case". I was wrong, and it now appears that Valve is sending the message "we're ready to do this thing at any time". Steam has something like 100 million+ active monthly users. Certainly some are casual and wouldn't make the switch, but that's a lot of home desktop market share to lose even if only half made the switch initially, and there'd be a h…

I wish I could take full credit for this, but I'm paraphrasing Andrew Plotkin (developer for the Inform text-adventure programming language):

Steam machines failed because they tried to replace Windows with a worse user experience. In 2015, there were fewer native games and worse compatibility; nobody is going to just rise up and displace Microsoft from their entrenched throne as THE Desktop PC Gaming platform. Alternately, the Steam Deck is essentially inventing a whole new market; if players want a mobile, AAA game platform the only contender right now is a Nintendo Switch (which has an entirely different games library, with limited overlap mostly in "indie" game titles). So now instead of fighting Microsoft where they're strongest, they're fighting a console manufacturer in one place they can expect to be weaker.

Then once the Steam Deck is a widespread commercial success -- and from pre-orders, it looks like that's guaranteed -- Valve will have the foothold to push SteamOS as an equal games development space as Windows desktop. Coupled with the reports that Proton currently runs over 90% of the popular games which don't have a native client, this very well could introduce Linux (albeit indirectly) to the wider market in a way that could eventually challenge Microsoft's comfortable monopoly position.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#200
We've had similar problems with keeping Zulip in the Apple app store. It's incredibly unpleasant to deal with this aspect of publishing an open source application.

For context, Zulip is a 100% open-source team chat project (in the same space as Slack/IRC/etc.). You can self-host Zulip, which we've put a lot of effort into making easy, or host it on Zulip Cloud (with both free and paid plans). There's no individual subscription option for the product at all -- just like with Slack -- so the app store policies to enforce their monopoly by requiring all individual purchases be taxed by Google/Apple shouldn't even apply to us.

But we've still had multiple rounds of rejections caused by aggressive enforcement of these policies:

* A couple years ago, Apple reviewers repeatedly rejected updates to the app because the privacy policy / terms of service pages linked from the app contained the zulip.com website footer, which in turn link to the pricing page for Zulip's paid offerings. This means our Privacy Policy could be a way to get people to buy something without paying the Apple tax! We "resolved" this, on the advice of their appeals expert, by passing a special parameter when loading these pages from the ToS/Privacy links in the mobile apps that hides the header/footer sections of the page :(.

* In May, Apple reviewers repeatedly rejected the Zulip mobile app for linking to its own source on GitHub. At first we thought the problem was that we had recently set up GitHub Sponsors [1]. Further correspondence determined that the problem was even more ridiculous: Any GitHub page has a tiny link in the https://github.com/zulip/zulip-mobile footer for GitHub's own pricing! We were able to convince them to approve it in the end, but we were close to giving up and removing the GitHub links. I'm still upset about the whole experience because it was a huge waste of energy.

It's not clear to me whether these rejections are what Apple's policies intended or just the policies being incorrectly applied. But it doesn't really matter: these appeal processes are opaque and scary and mostly consist of them repeating what you need to change with minimal explanation. If not for the entrenched monopoly, we'd be looking to switch to another vendor that wasn't so sloppy about something that's very important to us. I think the harm caused by sloppiness on the part of monopolies doesn't get enough attention.

[1] This would have been wrong too, though I do know some companies use a Patreon as the way to sell their product, and I can imagine that being a workaround that Apple would be on the lookout for. But it's easy to check that we're definitely not playing that game.

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