FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website • Hacker News Board

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#131

Post by ineedasername » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

ThePhysicist wrote: post #113

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

I could see that on Windows Home Edition, but I don't know how they would make that work for Enterprise Edition. I don't see companies like SAS or Oracle and many others being willing to pay a Microsoft tax to distribute client software or desktop apps for their products. Or IBM for applications like SPSS. SaaS may end up eating a lot of that sort of thing, and web clients would help mitigate the requirements, but I think there would just be too many that weren't.

If there was one thing that would push desktop linux into everyone's desktop in enterprise environments, it would be a move like this. And once that happens, similar to the initial home computing revolution, workers would bring it into their homes too.

As another comment mentioned, they'd almost certainly lose the desktop market among PC gamers when Valve & others refused to go along, and Valve's linux distro would be a very popular alternative.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#132

Post by danuker » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

foota wrote: post #78

aboringusername wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but this is why we need regulation and fast. We need by default other app stores on all operating systems (similar to search engines Google were forced to advertise) Google should have to compete on merit and if somebody doesn't want to give Google/Apple a cut, too bad. These platforms should probably not be placed under the control of such large entities, Android/iOS should be split into their own organisation…

To play devil's advocate, competing app stores could just be a race to the bottom.

Excellent. The price for distributing software should be very small. My Linux distro gives me free gigabytes of updates every month.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#133

Post by ineedasername » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:31 PM UTC

m4rtink wrote: post #120

ThePhysicist wrote: post #113

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

The possibility of OS vendors forcing users to only install software from their walled gardens is the reason Valve started to support Linux, created their own Linux distro (Steam OS, now based on Arch Linux) and ultimately why Steam Deck was built. IIRC the main trigger was Windows 8 that back then had a strong push to only use Windows Store to install software. Valve could not conceivably continue doing business if…

Yeah-- I thought SteamOS was mostly dead, sitting on a shelf "just in case". I was wrong, and it now appears that Valve is sending the message "we're ready to do this thing at any time".

Steam has something like 100 million+ active monthly users. Certainly some are casual and wouldn't make the switch, but that's a lot of home desktop market share to lose even if only half made the switch initially, and there'd be a halo effect on it too, along with a much more motivated & active community dedicated to cross platform compatibility.

We'd probably see a lot of "linux first" applications (not just games) as well.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#134

Post by eugeniub » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:32 PM UTC

m4rtink wrote: post #120

ThePhysicist wrote: post #113

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

The possibility of OS vendors forcing users to only install software from their walled gardens is the reason Valve started to support Linux, created their own Linux distro (Steam OS, now based on Arch Linux) and ultimately why Steam Deck was built. IIRC the main trigger was Windows 8 that back then had a strong push to only use Windows Store to install software. Valve could not conceivably continue doing business if…

I'm happy with what Valve is doing now, but as a whole, the fact that Steam OS is a Linux distro doesn't necessarily mean that Steam OS / Steam Deck won't become locked down in the same manner in the future. Android itself is open source and Linux-based.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#135

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

hundchenkatze wrote: post #101

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is very black and white thinking. Large organizations can do both good and terrible things. Google still serves are huge portion of search traffic which pretty clearly is a good thing. Youtube has an incredible wealth of tutorials & educational content. Deepmind is pushing the boundaries of what is possible. Various OSS projects continue to be pushed out. Gmail has been an amazing free resource for millions etc.…

> Google still serves are huge portion of search traffic which pretty clearly is a good thing. Hard disagree there, a single company dominating search is not a good thing.

It might be bad that it's a monopoly but that doesn't point to the value delivered by each search as negative.

IMO it's a failing of society not so much google that they don't have serious competition in this space.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#136

Post by leereeves » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #133

m4rtink wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The possibility of OS vendors forcing users to only install software from their walled gardens is the reason Valve started to support Linux, created their own Linux distro (Steam OS, now based on Arch Linux) and ultimately why Steam Deck was built. IIRC the main trigger was Windows 8 that back then had a strong push to only use Windows Store to install software. Valve could not conceivably continue doing business if…

Yeah-- I thought SteamOS was mostly dead, sitting on a shelf "just in case". I was wrong, and it now appears that Valve is sending the message "we're ready to do this thing at any time". Steam has something like 100 million+ active monthly users. Certainly some are casual and wouldn't make the switch, but that's a lot of home desktop market share to lose even if only half made the switch initially, and there'd be a h…

That's why Microsoft won't do this. Steam users have a big investment in games on Steam, and are quite likely to switch to SteamOS, even if not every game works perfectly, rather than buying all those games again. And that would create a big Linux customer base that game studios and hardware makers would develop for, threatening Microsoft's monopoly on the desktop.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#137

Post by zestyping » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #91

This is a perfect example of a line having to be drawn somewhere, but wherever you draw it is never going to be perfect in every case. First of all -- app stores need to make money or at least break even. They cost a lot of money to run. So app stores take a cut of all transactions. If they let developers implement their own payment mechanisms, either in-app or with a single link, then developers will make every app…

There's no reason for this to be the only solution. This doesn't have to be the only revenue channel for Google, or even the only revenue channel for an app store, and even if it is the revenue channel for the app store, this doesn't have to be the method of making people use it.

> Would it be nice if Google could add a subrule that links are allowed if they're at the very bottom of the page? Well how do you even define that, what if the page is a single sentence and then payment options? Or a rule that "donations" are allowed? Well then you get "donations" that come with "bonus functionality" and so forth, and a new line has to be drawn.

You're leading yourself down a garden path here. To break even, an app store only needs to take in enough to cover its hosting and traffic costs. It doesn't have to take a cut of all transactions.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#138

Post by danShumway » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #85

danShumway wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying this has anything to do with the payment being optional or the app being Open Source. Google's interpretation of its rules (assuming that this isn't just a mistake) is that an app can't link in-app to any source or page if there's a way to get from that page to a payment processor. Imagine if you went into Walmart, bought an Android phone, and then when you turned the phone on Google wa…

> Imagine if you went into Walmart, bought an Android phone, and then when you turned the phone on Google wasn't allowed to show you any links in the Android OS to their support pages because technically you can navigate from the support pages to the online Google store and then buy another phone from them directly without giving Walmart a cut. No, imagine if you went into Walmart, picked up an item for free and then…

That would be a problem if that was what was happening here. But it's not what's happening here, so it's not a problem :)

Google is listing the app as free. Separately, on a website via a page that is not linked from the main app in any location, you can donate to the developer. The developer is not linking to or steering the user towards that donation page in the app or in the app description, they're just linking to their code repository, which is clearly important for an Open Source app to do. If Walmart gave me a product for free, and separately I donated some money to the person who originally made that product, Walmart wouldn't really have much justification to complain.

The analogy you're proposing doesn't really make sense to me. Are you arguing that any method of donating to the developer at all outside of the Play Store is intrinsically stealing from Google? Are you arguing that the developer is stealing from Google by not hiding their donation pages on other platforms that exist outside of the app?

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#139

Post by proactivesvcs » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

ThePhysicist wrote: post #113

Just wait 5-10 years and it will probably be the same way on Windows and MacOS. They will argue that installing arbitrary, unvetted software through the web is dangerous, so it's only reasonable for Microsoft and Apple to make this very difficult and instead promote installing all software through their app stores (which they already start doing). Once software is primarily distributed via these stores they will also…

Microsoft are already inferring that arbitrary software is dangerous - SmartScreen's behaviour for unsigned code works against FOSS because a project (or person) has to pony up money to pay for a certificate.

Re: FOSS app removed from the Play Store for linking to the project's website

#140

Post by visarga » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #105

mdoms wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely speculative.

Just like the claim that a human visited the site and found a donation subsite. What's more likely? That someone at google checked the links in a small relatively unknown app or that an automatic process scanned the links in the app, something what is the main business of Google next to advertising?

If I was in charge of monitoring compliance I would write the Paypal link checker bot in my first day of work.