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It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

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Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a severely underestimated group of religious people who think that only God controls the weather, His reasons for what he does with it are not for you to evaluate, and that saying that humans can change the weather is blasphemy. It's easy to make fun of, but the most direct experience that people have of a God who controls the universe would be the weather. These people need to be approached theologically; s…

I have never been able to get my head around the religious paradox of God has a plan and free will. Can we make choices that effect the outcome of things or is it all part of Gods plan? It can't be both right? Did God create everything including free will or does it exist outside of his control? I don't blame my program when it does something wrong, I mean I wrote the code that tells it how to behave.

Well I'm religious (although I guess I 'believe' in man-made climate change), so here goes. Of course, every religion will have different answers.

The general Christian jist, often twisted by evangelicals and fundamentalists (in my opinion), but still preserved and well-recorded in the annals of Catholic thought is that God is both personal but also perfect.

Let's go back in time. Aristotle, from whom a lot of (Western) Christian ideas come, believed that the universe obeyed certain laws and that behind these laws there was an 'unmoved mover', i.e., an entity whose power permeated the universe and who followed the laws of the universe. To paraphrase, God is that which has no cause. Now to be clear, a lot of human language is predicated on things having causes; we are not used to dealing with that which has no cause, which is why these linguistic paradoxes often pop up and cause confusion.

Broadly speaking, God is Aristotle's unmoved mover. While he could override free will, he won't, because he promised us he wouldn't and as a perfect God, he follows his own law. It actually doesn't make sense to identify 'God's law' as separate from God himself, because God is subject only to himself. God cannot 'cause' himself to do something because God has no cause.

In the same way that God created the universe, but the universe follows certain laws that cannot be broken (save, of course, in Christian thought for exceptional circumstances, although even then it's unclear -- happy to discuss this in more detail). People ask silly questions like 'can God create a square circle', but fail to understand the nonsensicalness of the question. The universe we inhabit was created by God and does not permit square circles. 'Could' God create a universe in which some laws could be broken... sure, but (1) to presume that we have the linguistic ability to speak of such universes is human hubris, and (2) moreover, to 'could' do something requires that one have a cause to do such a thing, but God has no cause and nothing can 'cause' him to do something, since God is his own cause, and the quality of having no cause is one that is necessary for God to be God. If some thing had the quality of needing a cause (like the potential we're talking about to create a new universe with this new set of laws), it could not possible be the same thing as God. If God had willed such a universe to exist, it would already, and maybe it does, but we wouldn't know.

> Can we make choices that effect the outcome of things or is it all part of Gods plan?

Yes, we can make choices that affect the outcome of things. In fact, large portions of the universe is the result of human choices. But we cannot deviate from God's plan, simply because God will manage to fix it, no matter what we do. This is like how humanity can do whatever we want, but the universe will end in heat death basically no matter what choices we make today. The trajectory of the universe towards the apocalypse and the final judgement is inevitable (just like the absolute increase in entropy), even if the choices we make today are not.

> Did God create everything including free will or does it exist outside of his control?

God cannot change his mind (what cause would he have to do so). His will is perfect. Thus, since he's given us free will and guaranteed it, he cannot 'take it back'. In our human conception of 'free will', we grant ourselves -- as imperfect being -- the action of being able to change our mind. God doesn't change his decisions, because his will is perfect. God is not the only creature with this particular nature. The angels also have perfect will, which is why lucifer will not change his mind and reconcile with God.

This conception of God differs drastically from yours which envisions God as simply a very powerful super-hero-like entity. It even differs from the Old Testament view of God, which often has him changing his mind. The Christian conception of God (at least that present in the Western church) is very different from Judaism and extremely different from evangelical, Protestant Christianity.

I'm engaging in good faith (and I am giving my best understanding; many much smarter than myself have thought about this and I am trying to summarize), please no trolling or flaming here.

Sources:

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1083.htm https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm http://www.catholictheology.info/summa-theologica/summa-part...

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#382
post #273

Shouldn't climate change have both negative and positive effects? For example, people don't want to live in the Rust Belt because the winters are too cold. Could the region's economic viability increase if winters get milder? In some places, climate change makes things worse for growing crops, makes people need to move out, or increases the probability of disasters. Everyone is talking about this. In other places, cl…

If the earth warms enough we could enter a period of permanent world wide drought. When temperatures are too hot, clouds can no longer form. No clouds means no rain and even hotter temperatures.

Some areas may become more livable, but we're talking the extreme northern reaches of Canada.

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#383

Around 10 years ago when I was telling everyone what will happen soon (floods, wild fires, heat waves etc) people looked at me like I'm some kind of lunatic. These days the same people ask me what I think about the future. Few years ago I believed we can still win with climate change but now I'm certain that we will not. Problem is in the fundamentals of our current economic model that is based on infinite growth, wh…

I tried that (accept and move on), but when you have kids...I find it impossible. I can’t accept that fate for them. How do you reason about that?

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#384
post #307
post #8

Who still believes global warming does not exist? I am currently listening to audiobook of Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six (1998). It has a paragraph on global warming and trying to convince POTUS it is real. And POTUS not wanting to act on it because it would be too large economic drag on US. This book is almost quarter of century old.

Cosmos, both the book and the series, debuted in 1980. In it, Sagan warned of greenhouse effects Al Gore was holding congressional hearings on climate change when he was first elected to Congress. In 1976. Environmental issues were the focus of his efforts during his Vice Presidency. From 1993 to 2001. So. We're actually closer to 50 years. It's not like we were not warned.

Try 1896: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#385

Imagine an asteroid would be on trajectory to collide with earth in (say) 2025. Possible order of hypothetical events: 1. Scientist discover the asteroid. Calculate risk of collision. 2. Asteroid comes closer, probability of impact is calculated as high. 3. People will start saying that we cannot let our economy be controlled by the specter of an asteroid. 4. The asteroid becomes visible. You can see it with your bar…

Replace an Asteroid with a weakening Geomagnetic field due to a Geomagnetic Excursion. Geomagnetic excursions are correlated with mass extinction in the Paleotological record. This makes sense since the Geomagnetic field shields Earth from space weather & a weakened Geomagnetic field means less protection from space weather.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2018RG00...

Uh oh, we are currently going through a Geomagnetic Excursion. Why are we not doing anything about it? Why is the population at large not alerted?

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-shows-that-earth-s-ma...

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm more concerned about the absolutely tepid response by folks who allegedly believe in climate change. I don't know how we are going to put a dent in climate change without something like carbon pricing (something that incentivizes us to reduce our carbon emissions). Instead the best case is that we're going to write progressives a check for $3.5T and they'll use a little bit of it to create a "civilian…

You seem to be conflating the broader progressive ideology with the frustrating realities of trying to pass specific policies into law. The reason what we're getting out of Washington doesn't include enough to fight climate change may not be absolutely 100% the fault of the Republican Party, but it's enough that blaming the Democrats for it to any meaningful extent just smacks of disingenuous both-sides-ism.

I'm not talking about broader progressive ideology at all (apart from a belief that climate change is a real existential threat that requires significant immediate action), I'm talking about the priorities of the current crop of progressive Democratic politicians (and/or Democrats more broadly).

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#387
post #126
post #83

Ok global warming is happening we know it for a long time. But is there a place somewhere that explain how could the world works without emitting too much co2, or any gaz which are problematic. How do we replace cars ? trucks ? how many people on earth is possible ? Can we have plane ? Boat ? How do we produce clothes, how do we have electricity at night ... I'm not asking to have a plan for everything, because this…

As I see things the only solution is that humans need to stop reproducing so much. There are far too many people for the resources of the planet given current technology.

This kind of discourse is simply disregarding facts to promote a not-my-problem ideology.

The countries that contribute most significantly to greenhouse gas emissions almost always have very low demography. Because of that, if we were to change demography to reach strict population equilibrium in every country without changing countries' emissions per capita, we would actually emit more greenhouse gases.

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#388
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a severely underestimated group of religious people who think that only God controls the weather, His reasons for what he does with it are not for you to evaluate, and that saying that humans can change the weather is blasphemy. It's easy to make fun of, but the most direct experience that people have of a God who controls the universe would be the weather. These people need to be approached theologically; s…

I think it's healthy and necessary to make fun of fundamentalists - I think the issue comes when people make efforts at taking them seriously and give their platform a modicum of respect at a national level. The US has a severe issue with fundamentalist entrenchment in media and government at the moment and it's going to take a while to kick them all out. Evangelism is an extremist ideology that is causing ongoing ha…

There's no way to kick out religious fundamentalists. They get to vote just like everyone else. And they have created their own echo chamber media. Any real solutions will require working with them and not just dismissing them.

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be frank the science is way less apocalyptic in nature than certain politicians and people tend to be rhetorically speaking. Climate change isn’t going to wipe out humanity or all life on Earth and I’ve never seen a legit paper even come close to suggesting this. Yet I hear it from Joe blow all the time.

While science does tend to keep estimates and language neutral to focus on hard facts, I would argue that those facts have pointed to catastrophe for a long time [1]. The language of fact is often dry and what most people (myself included) naturally pay attention to are loud/charismatic/flashy presentations of topics. Visualization [2] of data helps understand just how much area we can expect to lose around the coast…

I’m not saying that climate change isn’t a problem or that it isn’t going to effect a lot of people. But millions of refugees fleeing the coastal areas and crazy weather patterns are not the same as the end of all life on earth or the end of humanity.

Those last two are the common rhetoric from non-scientist who doomsay about climate change and it turns people off or in the worst case makes them think it’s all lies.

Re: It’s official: July was Earth’s hottest month on record

#390
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to explain this to a relative who started in with the “the earth has always had climate change” jibberish. They tried to tell me no-one knows how the last Ice Age happened. So I explained, but because they didn’t understand any of the concepts involved they thought I was just making it up. It’s a good reminder never to assume malice when plain old stupidity is on the table.

> It’s a good reminder never to assume malice when plain old stupidity is on the table. We are only in this mess because of this attitude. Don't let evil people get away with evil things just because you think they are stupid. The current groups that believe climate change isn't real all believe that because of decades of misinformation specifically targeted at them, by Exxon and others. Malice is 100% present and 10…

You're not going to 'win' if you just call people who disagree with you 'evil'. Man... people claim that Christians are bad for judging, but I've found the entire human population to be happy to not just say that an action is wrong but ready to call the sinner literally evil. This is such toxic language, it shouldn't be tolerated.
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