Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#411

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

beaner wrote: post #305

kesselvon wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising that universities are more left-leaning when the right has taken a stance against higher education and pushes anti-intellectualism for political gain. The right likes to push this idea of universities as brainwashing factories, but there's very little of that going on given that its usually a struggle to get everyone to do the assigned reading, let alone try to brainwash people.

I dunno, I went to college. I've seen what it's like on the inside. Before I ever had political opinions it was pretty easy to see that people came out kind of brainless and all thinking the same things. It did not seem like an institution that really developed peoples' ability to think for themselves.

> Before I ever had political opinions it was pretty easy to see that people came out kind of brainless and all thinking the same things

Wow. I would say IME people were transformed from unengaged and ignorant to skilled critical thinkers. YMMV, and it it may depend on college and major, but they couldn't make it through liberal arts classes "brainless and all thinking the same things"; they'd fail.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#412

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #364

kesselvon wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising that universities are more left-leaning when the right has taken a stance against higher education and pushes anti-intellectualism for political gain. The right likes to push this idea of universities as brainwashing factories, but there's very little of that going on given that its usually a struggle to get everyone to do the assigned reading, let alone try to brainwash people.

> It's not surprising that universities are more left-leaning when the right has taken a stance against higher education and pushes anti-intellectualism for political gain. People do realize that you don't have to choose between the regressive, anti-intellectual right and the regressive, anti-intellectual left, correct? Every time someone criticizes the left, some left-wing person argues that the right-wing is worse…

A little confused: We do or don't have to choose?

I agree with 'don't'; the idea that everything is politicized propaganda is a tool of the propagandists, like a liar saying 'everyone lies'.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#413

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #410

ethbr0 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you? Seems very difficult to me. If the question is "How effective is a course in reducing ones propensity to be "misinformed"?" then that's a pretty basic (and cheap) experimental psychology study. Set up a control group (diverse, large enough) that goes through a traditional curriculum. No added class. Set up a test group (diverse, matched, large enough) that adds the additional class. Afterwards, prese…

The identification of the so-called indefensible vs defensible information is probably the hardest thing here. What’s something objectively indefensible that would require a course on misinformation to identify? I also don’t really see how you can setup a control group - either this class is required in which case a control is not possible, or you introduce the massive selection bias. The best way would be to assign…

> What’s something objectively indefensible that would require a course on misinformation to identify?

Off the top of my head?

- Susie says the sky is blue. The sky is blue, because Susie says so.

- Frank says climate change is real. Frank is a convicted pedophile. Therefore, climate change is not real.

- Among all animals, only man is rational. Women are not men. Therefore, women are not rational.

- All humans are alive, therefore life begins at conception.

- Hacker News is the best source of informed commentary, because informed commenters comment on Hacker News.

And I've seen real world analogs of all of those on cable news shows.

> massive selection bias

This is something that experimental psychology has been solving for about 100 years. They're not bad at it.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#414

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #338

alexilliamson wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except evidence says the opposite. I would start here. The right is driving polarization. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/solutions-to-political-...

If we're talking about US politics, there's also the tendency of the right to cluster to a common narrative, whereas the left tends to be more tolerant of diverse narratives. It would seem unsurprising that the end result of this, upon pulling the "center" of each party towards its own extreme, is essentially what we've seen -- ~50% of conservatives now believe in vaccine/pandemic conspiracy theories, vs liberals sup…

> It would seem unsurprising that the end result of this, upon pulling the "center" of each party towards its own extreme, is essentially what we've seen -- ~50% of conservatives now believe in vaccine/pandemic conspiracy theories, vs liberals support some extremists at the local level

They wouldn't be pulled to extremes, they'd already be there. However, most research shows it's the right that's moved far. Look at Trumpism and compare that to prior conservative leaders, such as GW Bush, GHW Bush, Reagan, Ford .... Biden fits right in with Clinton and Obama.

> liberals support some extremists at the local level

What extremists? There are people farther left than Biden, but nobody trying to seize power from the people, letting a deadly pandemic spread for political reasons, backing arrest and brutality toward their political enemies, etc.

It's not balanced; if Amy punches Bob, it's not even-handed to blame both of them. If Amy burns down the house, it's not even-handed to say 'we're all crazy'.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#415

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

janeroe wrote: post #403

wolverine876 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps your personal welfare is strongly linked to and dependent on that of others. For example, you need roads, security, education, health care, food, electricity, communication, law, customers, vendors, employees, business partners, etc etc.

Too bad the government is terrible at all of those things.

It is too bad, but it's your government. What are you doing about it? It's like the cliched response to complaints re OSS, but at least that's arguably not your and my responsibility; our government is. It's our job to care for it, make it work, and pass it to our kids in better shape than we got it.

I find the government functions very well given it's necessarily a large institution (which all are bureaucratic and inefficient, including businesses) and perpetual (it can't go out of business and be replaced, but we do replace management!). Transportation infrastructure (roads, airports, etc.), food safety, education, science (NASA, NSF, NIH), courts, military, regulation of banks, national parks, etc. etc. Think of NASA - the greatest explorers in the history of humanity, with nobody even close - is a government agency.

Government's biggest problem is the lack of participation from citizens and obstruction from the GOP. The post office delivered my mail fine for my entire life until the neo-reactionaries got hold of it and (intentionally, I think) ruined it.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#416

Post by jonathankoren » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

janeroe wrote: post #391

jonathankoren wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an old person who actually remembers when George Bush (the dad) coined the term “voodoo economics” during the 1980 primary against Reagan, I’ll explain the central thesis to what backers call “supply side” economics. It’s basically the same logic as selling merchandise at low cost. How does the government make money? Volume! Seriously. The argument is that cutting taxes will spur economic growth that will grow the…

We are looking at it from different perspectives. You from the central planner's one. I'm from the position of an acting person, someone who doesn't believe anyone owes them anything, but at the same time preferring to keep what's earned. Someone who's not bought into redistribution programs that spend $4 to redistribute each $1 (actual research for the US), or any involuntary redistribution schemes for that matter.…

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth and speaking with a lot of assumed authority for someone that just admitted that they don’t understand and most influential public policy in a more than a generation. It is the central economic dogma of a major political party. I find this doubly ironic because you go on to spout positions congruent with that party.

Get off Parler, or whatever and read a history book, because Reagan’s economic policies echo even today. Even without a labeled time axis, there are countless economic charts where you can easily pick out 1981.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#417

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #407

throwaway894345 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, conservatives have moved far rightward, which might make others relatively more leftish. I don't think this is true, I think the left-wing media has fixated increasingly on the far-right or exaggerating the extent to which individuals on the right are "far-right" which gives the impression that the right is drifting, but it's just the media changing how it represents the right. To be clear, the right is chang…

I would summarize the drift as far-right voices are getting louder (in terms of air time / reach) and centrist-right voices are getting quieter. On the left, far-left voices are also getting louder, but I don't think the centrist-left voices have gotten quieter as much as their centrist-right counterparts. The end result is that "the right" seems more right (in terms of speech) while "the left" seems... conflicted (i…

Right-wing support for Trump and his far right policies dominates the GOP. Moderate or even conservative Republicans, who even say that the election was legitimate, are cast out and can't win primaries.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#418

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #414

ethbr0 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about US politics, there's also the tendency of the right to cluster to a common narrative, whereas the left tends to be more tolerant of diverse narratives. It would seem unsurprising that the end result of this, upon pulling the "center" of each party towards its own extreme, is essentially what we've seen -- ~50% of conservatives now believe in vaccine/pandemic conspiracy theories, vs liberals sup…

> It would seem unsurprising that the end result of this, upon pulling the "center" of each party towards its own extreme, is essentially what we've seen -- ~50% of conservatives now believe in vaccine/pandemic conspiracy theories, vs liberals support some extremists at the local level They wouldn't be pulled to extremes, they'd already be there. However, most research shows it's the right that's moved far. Look at T…

> already be there

I see Trumpism as a cause, not a symptom.

The right was casting about for a leader after McCain and Romney (both centrists) lost to Obama. Trump (and allies) spoke loudest, and so pulled the "party truth" to the right for the Republican party.

Those Republicans who disagreed (of whom there were many) left politics or stopped speaking publicly about their disagreement. Or, over time, began to agree with the party line. Little tent politics.

> What extremists?

There's a well known group, who you can probably find by seeing who's on the Fox News homepage right now, who says things would would be considered far left.

And yet, Biden still calls these people crazy and says no to the more extreme policy proposals. Big tent politics.

My comment wasn't sharing blame. It was remarking on the fundamentally different organizations that the right and the left run, and who they allow to speak.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#419

Post by Tarsul » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #401

JamesBarney wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Journalism is changing. And to pretend like it's not is adding fuel to the fire. Younger journalists are less likely to see their job as being a neutral arbiter of truth and more likely to see themselves as part of the culture war. I'm a liberal but just as the ACLU is not the same organization it was 20 years ago, neither is The Gray Lady.

> Younger journalists are less likely to see their job as being a neutral arbiter of truth and more likely to see themselves as part of the culture war. That's a great way of phrasing it, because it speaks to the economic reality. You don't get hired as an independent or investigative journalist anymore, at the start of your career. You do get hired as a content magnet for eyeballs. This has always been a tension, bu…

and that's why nowadays I'm very happy to being coerced to pay 20 Euros/month for the German public broadcasting, which doesn't have the incentive to make money but rather to inform and raise questions. There have been quite a few articles in the Atlantic and The Guardian that basically said that these public broadcasters are helping to guide the public, so that these total culture wars are somewhat weakened in countries with strong public TV. However, I think this is only part of the equation, of equal importance is that voices are heard, meaning that democracy works. Where it doesn't work (well), something has to give and maybe that's why culture wars are stronger in those countries (e.g. USA). But that's just my hypothesis.

Re: Illinois Is the First State to Have High Schools Teach News Literacy

#420

Post by janeroe » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #416

janeroe wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are looking at it from different perspectives. You from the central planner's one. I'm from the position of an acting person, someone who doesn't believe anyone owes them anything, but at the same time preferring to keep what's earned. Someone who's not bought into redistribution programs that spend $4 to redistribute each $1 (actual research for the US), or any involuntary redistribution schemes for that matter.…

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth and speaking with a lot of assumed authority for someone that just admitted that they don’t understand and most influential public policy in a more than a generation. It is the central economic dogma of a major political party. I find this doubly ironic because you go on to spout positions congruent with that party. Get off Parler, or whatever and read a history book, becaus…

What an entitled moron you're. I'm not even from the States. Do you expect everyone on the planet Earth to learn policies of your government. That'd be too much honor.