Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires • Hacker News Board

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#141

Post by _greim_ » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

david927 wrote: post #3

Until there's a wealth floor -- until everyone is fed, sheltered and has access to education, there needs to be a wealth cap. We, as a collective humanity, should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million, until the basic needs of others have been met.

> should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million

We need to define "have." "Have" as in have X$ as personally owned liquid assets? Or "have" as in having X$ invested in economic development?

I'd agree with you in the former case, but not so much the latter.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#142

Post by flyinglizard » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #134

flyinglizard wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the government know about managing tech companies?

Ideally they wouldn't care much about the day to day operations of a company or even that it is profitable and they would use their voting shares only to prevent decisions that actively cause societal harm or to favor ones that actively benefit society. Like I said, there's still a lot that could go wrong with that scheme, but it isn't like the current scheme doesn't have its problems too.

How would you manage this very site by these criteria? Would you still cover cryptography, freedom of information, civil unrest and bills which damage fundamental rights?

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#143

Post by jayjader » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #98

david927 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's a problem. But it's not as big a problem as the current economic divide. The very wealthiest have superfluous amounts of money -- enough to pay to find loopholes so that they pay no taxes. If there was an island with 100 people and one person had almost all of the coconuts and others were starving, no one will care about details for very long. Fix it now because people won't ask nicely for long.

Right so instead we should take one of those 100 people and give them the power of violence to take all the coconuts and distribute as they see fit. Likely to their friends and family. So we end up with the same scenario again, inequality persists only this time it’s because of a centralized authority figure that now has a monopoly on violence.

> Right so instead we should take one of those 100 people and give them the power of violence to take all the coconuts and distribute as they see fit.

No one is saying that.

We take all the coconuts, gather all the people, and work to come to a decision.

Or are you saying you need someone to tell you what to do, and you'd rather it be the guy that got rich off everyone else than someone randomly chosen? I can understand that at least, although I still disagree.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#144

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #102

eightysixfour wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think you hit the nail on the head, I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful, that's why people are calling for it to be taken by the government and redistributed.

Probably because people view billionaires as mustache-twirling villains and have absolutely no idea what they do with their time or money.

Rather we do have some idea what they do with their time and money: influence politics, lobby for regulatory capture, lobby against societally beneficial regulation, bust unions, rent-seek, astroturf, form monopolies and oligopolies, have outsized carbon footprints, avoid paying anything back to society, commit crimes and get away with them, etc.

We see them as mustache-twirling villains because, well, they act like mustache-twirling villains.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#145

Post by hackeraccount » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #49

I have no problem with billionaires personally. I do have a problem with people being billionaires if the "value" they've created is negative (obviously this is my opinion). Consider two billionaries: - One creates a cold nuclear fusion device the size of a 10" x 10" x 10" cube. You can plug anything to this device and it will power it, indefinitely. - Another gets little boys and girls addicted to some sort of super…

What's the line from The Big Labowski, "That's like... your opinion man."

That said the first thing is a bomb.

The second thing is a - presumably - harmless addiction foisted on a group that's not really in a position to harm other people and will have a reasonably hard time harming themselves. I mean, children, sure but honestly they don't really have all that much agency.

There's a lot of upside on #1 but I'd expect a huge amount of downside too. #2 doesn't have any upside but I don't see a lot of downside either.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#146

Post by protoman3000 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #55

david927 wrote: post #3

Until there's a wealth floor -- until everyone is fed, sheltered and has access to education, there needs to be a wealth cap. We, as a collective humanity, should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million, until the basic needs of others have been met.

Imposing a wealth cap like that is a fantastic way to assure that those basic needs will never be met. Over the past two centuries, billions of humans have been lifted out of poverty. Approximately zero percent of that came from the redistribution of existing wealth. All of it came from raising economic productivity. And that vast majority of those productivity gains had foundations built by entrepreneurs seeking gre…

> Over the past two centuries, billions of humans have been lifted out of poverty

> by entrepreneurs seeking great fortunes

No. It was technological innovation, made by the brightest heads of our species that did science themselves or at publicly funded institutions. The private sector took these innovations to manufacture and accumulate, while the innovators were criminally underpaid.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#147

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #104

hobs wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear explosions and energy were initially developed because of military purposes. Rockets were developed for military purposes. I dont think the history of those things indicate we need rich individuals to make them.

NASA has developed into a bureaucratic machine with risk averse incentives. The power of the state when it throws its weight behind something is awe-inspiring but the power of decentralized innovation leads to tinkering and unexpected breakthroughs that a government run project wouldn’t permit (due to the number of unnecessary bureaucracy and box checking)

> NASA has developed into a bureaucratic machine with risk averse incentives.

Consider that once companies got involved in space they had incentive to lobby congress to make NASA less competitive.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#148

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #42

david927 wrote: post #3

Until there's a wealth floor -- until everyone is fed, sheltered and has access to education, there needs to be a wealth cap. We, as a collective humanity, should not allow anyone to have more than, say, $20 million, until the basic needs of others have been met.

Policies like this will cause the rich, who have extreme mobility, to leave your country. Maybe to some people this sounds nice, but generally it will lead to worse companies and less innovation.

[deleted]

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#149

Post by WhyNotHugo » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #49

I have no problem with billionaires personally. I do have a problem with people being billionaires if the "value" they've created is negative (obviously this is my opinion). Consider two billionaries: - One creates a cold nuclear fusion device the size of a 10" x 10" x 10" cube. You can plug anything to this device and it will power it, indefinitely. - Another gets little boys and girls addicted to some sort of super…

Likewise, there's the idea of "creating value" and the idea of "extracting value".

- If one buys wheat, bakes bread and sells it making a profit, they're creating value.

- If one buys all the wheat in the region, creates a shortage and price spike, and then sells it at a profit, they're just exacting wealth.

The second case is not contributing any value to society -- quite the contrary, they're just redistributing the existing one for themselves, giving nothing in return (hence "extracting value").

Sure, the second option is legal, but that just seems like an oversight when law-making, and it definitely harms society more than anything else.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#150

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #88

david927 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have that already and it's called taxation. What would change would be that it would include a wealth tax that goes to 100% after that threshold. Oh, but don't worry. Greed is such an amazing motivator that it wouldn't take a decade before we accomplished meeting those basic needs.

So if you have a private valuation that exceeds $25M you’re forced to somehow pay, even when all your wealth is locked up in illiquid company share?

Share ownership can be transferred.