Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux • Hacker News Board

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#11

Post by renewiltord » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 3:53 AM UTC

One unfortunate thing with rolling releases is that you shouldn’t fall too far behind.

I had to move abroad for a bit and left my desktop behind. That’s fine. I’ve done this sort of thing before and I just boot it up, apt update, apt upgrade, and I’m good.

With Pac-Man I hit a thing where it wouldn’t upgrade. It couldn’t get me up to date from a year ago.

Had to give it up then because this sort of thing happens to me. Put a desktop in storage a while ago during the pandemic and I’m going to go back to it in a couple of months. It’s Ubuntu, I’m confident I’ll be fine.

Could have been a Layer 8 error, but I’ve just completed my second decade of Linux in my early thirties so I kind of grew up with this stuff.

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#12

Post by guerrilla » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 3:55 AM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #3

Would not ubuntu or fedora be better if you wanted faster release? In my experience when I used to run arch (~4 years ago) I had breaking changes every couple of months where with Fedora I never had one except when I was the culprit by adding a graphics card with proprietary drivers.

Been running arch for nearly 10 years and the only couple of breaking changes I had were either from ignorance or not reading special update instructions.

Also Arch is far more up to date than those you mention (sometimes by many months.) You're not confusing it with another distro?

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#13

Post by sgtnoodle » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 3:56 AM UTC

libcg wrote: post #5

I've been running Arch on multiple machines for 10 years at this point. Been through the systemd transition. In my experience there is very little breakage, and it's easier to deal with than a huge upgrade every 6 months or more. I'm guessing Valve will not deploy Arch packages directly to the Deck, but instead do weekly/monthly releases that are properly QA'd. It should be very smooth while giving them flexibility t…

It's great, I've been running an Arch server in my garage for about 6 years. I've had maybe 4 updates break in a way that required manual intervention. I've spent maybe 30 minutes total dealing with OS specific update issues, over 6 years!

My Arch based desktop tends to break more often because it has a lot more stuff installed. Since I use it daily, though, it's pretty quick to roll with the punches.

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#14

Post by secondaryacct » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 3:57 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #11

One unfortunate thing with rolling releases is that you shouldn’t fall too far behind. I had to move abroad for a bit and left my desktop behind. That’s fine. I’ve done this sort of thing before and I just boot it up, apt update, apt upgrade, and I’m good. With Pac-Man I hit a thing where it wouldn’t upgrade. It couldn’t get me up to date from a year ago. Had to give it up then because this sort of thing happens to m…

Yeah having been on many distro for 20 years I just gave up on Windows-like (or MacOS) upgrade experience and just split everything that is important in a NAS, everything transient personnal in a home partition totally isolated from the distro, and the rest in a distro partition that can break any day with no consequence. I even do that too with the NAS since ive been fucked before by an upgrade tainting the same partition all the data was in (stupid of me to trust btrfs).

There s no attempt at building a comfortable product, but that s fine.

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#15

Post by likeclockwork » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 3:58 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #9

encryptluks2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they did release packages directly, it is trivial to create automatic snapshots that should breakage occur, relevant system directories can be reverted.

No, not if such breakage causes data loss and damage. Edit: Did everyone replying here forget we're talking about an embedded device, a game console, before responding? It behooves Valve to do QA above and beyond what Arch has done is what I'm saying. Valve wouldn't want to take the chance of just passing on upstream Arch directly. Devices may end up bricked, customers upset, etc. Testing is good actually. Furthermor…

Highly improbable.

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#16

Post by encryptluks2 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:01 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #9

encryptluks2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they did release packages directly, it is trivial to create automatic snapshots that should breakage occur, relevant system directories can be reverted.

No, not if such breakage causes data loss and damage. Edit: Did everyone replying here forget we're talking about an embedded device, a game console, before responding? It behooves Valve to do QA above and beyond what Arch has done is what I'm saying. Valve wouldn't want to take the chance of just passing on upstream Arch directly. Devices may end up bricked, customers upset, etc. Testing is good actually. Furthermor…

You mean like those caused by Mac and Windows updates? No OS is perfect, so I'm sure like any device you use, making backups of data critical to you is still necessary. You know what else can cause data loss? Your hard drive breaking.

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#17

Post by volta83 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:01 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #9

encryptluks2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they did release packages directly, it is trivial to create automatic snapshots that should breakage occur, relevant system directories can be reverted.

No, not if such breakage causes data loss and damage. Edit: Did everyone replying here forget we're talking about an embedded device, a game console, before responding? It behooves Valve to do QA above and beyond what Arch has done is what I'm saying. Valve wouldn't want to take the chance of just passing on upstream Arch directly. Devices may end up bricked, customers upset, etc. Testing is good actually. Furthermor…

I use btrfs snapshot with arch just for this, and they've saved me multiple times.

Its like Apple's Time Machine, but also covers system files.

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#18

Post by Jasper_ » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:01 AM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #12

edgyquant wrote: post #3

Would not ubuntu or fedora be better if you wanted faster release? In my experience when I used to run arch (~4 years ago) I had breaking changes every couple of months where with Fedora I never had one except when I was the culprit by adding a graphics card with proprietary drivers.

Been running arch for nearly 10 years and the only couple of breaking changes I had were either from ignorance or not reading special update instructions. Also Arch is far more up to date than those you mention (sometimes by many months.) You're not confusing it with another distro?

Do Steam Deck users have to read those special update instructions as well? That sounds like a pain. Why can't it just be automatic

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#19

Post by encryptluks2 » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

volta83 wrote: post #17

guerrilla wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not if such breakage causes data loss and damage. Edit: Did everyone replying here forget we're talking about an embedded device, a game console, before responding? It behooves Valve to do QA above and beyond what Arch has done is what I'm saying. Valve wouldn't want to take the chance of just passing on upstream Arch directly. Devices may end up bricked, customers upset, etc. Testing is good actually. Furthermor…

I use btrfs snapshot with arch just for this, and they've saved me multiple times. Its like Apple's Time Machine, but also covers system files.

Gotta love Snapper and snap-pac!

Re: Why SteamOS Switched from Debian to Arch Linux

#20

Post by SilverRed » Fri, Aug 13, 2021, 4:05 AM UTC

I think that Fedora SilverBlue would have been the perfect OS for these kinds of consumer products. Arch is great and probably very rarely breaks but if it does, there is very few ways to recover the situation other than instructing users to reinstall the OS.

With something like fedora silverblue, if an update fails, The system can reboot in to the previous OS image without issue. It also ensures that there is a known state for the OS without having to deal with the fact that users may have changed things which breaks an update.