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Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

reuters.com

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Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#141

Post by FooHentai »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #39
jonplackett wrote: post #5

In their attempt to make this extra private by scanning 'on device', I think they've managed to make it feel worse. If they scan my iCloud photos in iCloud, well lots of companies scan stuff when you upload it. It's on their servers, they're responsible for it. They don't want to be hosting CSAM. It feels much worse them turning your own, trusty iPhone against you. I know that isn't how you should look at it, but tha…

The practical difference is that with on-device scanning, the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device, instead of just the ones that are about to be uploaded. With server-side scanning, the separation is clear—what's on Apple's server can be scanned, and what's only on your phone cannot. This all plays so perfectly into my long-time fears about the locked down nature of the iPhone…

>the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device

I prefer to think of it as being just one national security letter away from that happening.

Which is of course a schroedinger's cat kinda thing. It's already been sent. Or it hasn't. But why would the national security apparatus not take advantage of this obvious opportunity?

Anyone giving benefit of the doubt to this kind of stuff nowadays is IMO very naive or just poorly informed of recent digital history.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#142

Post by alabamacadabra »

perardi wrote: post #117
pehtis wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thats exactly how i feel. I'd still hate it if my iCloud uploads are scanned but I'm already assuming that anyway. But the fact that my iOS device can potentially report me to any authorities, for whatever reason, is crossing a line that makes it impossible to ever own an iPhone again. I bought my first one in 2007 so I'm not saying this lightly.. Does anybody know if this policy will extend to macOS too?

I think you’re going to have to go to a flip phone, then. Not to be, uh, flippant. Because this feels like a rather obvious slippery slope that Google will be compelled to slide down as well. Feels like the only way to avoid such a thing would be dumb phone + Linux laptop/desktop.

They already do. Look up “federated learning”. Lmao.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#143

Post by slg »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128
slg wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also an argument that the cloud scanning is a few bit flips away from allowing random Apple employees from looking through all my photos while on device scanning means they have to be specifically looking for certain content. On device scanning is probably preferred if one's fear is someone stealing their nudes, which is one of the more common fears about photo privacy and one that Apple has already shown is…

Sure, but I don't particularly care because I don't upload sensitive photos to iCloud. As I'd recommend to everyone else. If it's on someone else's computer, it's not yours. But, I suppose my iPhone was never really mine either. I knew that, I just never quite put two and two together...

>Sure, but I don't particularly care because I don't upload sensitive photos to iCloud

So you are saying you have nothing to fear because you aren't hiding anything?

Is this a tacit admission that you don't want them scanning your phone for CSAM because they will find something?

I'm obviously not seriously accusing you of anything, just pointing out how your line of argument applies equally to privacy whether on the cloud or on your device.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#144

Post by nullc »

azinman2 wrote: post #116
nullc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't being coaxed or coerced. If they were forced-- or even incentivized-- by the government to perform these searches than they'd be subject to the fourth amendment protecting against warrantless searches. Apple is engaging in this activity of their own free will for sake of their own commercial gain and are not being incentivized or coerced by the government in any way. As such, the warrantless search of the…

> Apple is engaging in this activity of their own free will for sake of their own commercial gain What's the commercial gain?

Not being identified as the go-to platform for kiddy porn collectors.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#146

Post by Wowfunhappy »

slg wrote: post #143
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I don't particularly care because I don't upload sensitive photos to iCloud. As I'd recommend to everyone else. If it's on someone else's computer, it's not yours. But, I suppose my iPhone was never really mine either. I knew that, I just never quite put two and two together...

>Sure, but I don't particularly care because I don't upload sensitive photos to iCloud So you are saying you have nothing to fear because you aren't hiding anything? Is this a tacit admission that you don't want them scanning your phone for CSAM because they will find something? I'm obviously not seriously accusing you of anything, just pointing out how your line of argument applies equally to privacy whether on the…

> So you are saying you have nothing to fear because you aren't hiding anything?

No, I'm saying that if you're hiding something, maybe don't give it to someone else.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#147

Post by nitrogen »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #39
jonplackett wrote: post #5

In their attempt to make this extra private by scanning 'on device', I think they've managed to make it feel worse. If they scan my iCloud photos in iCloud, well lots of companies scan stuff when you upload it. It's on their servers, they're responsible for it. They don't want to be hosting CSAM. It feels much worse them turning your own, trusty iPhone against you. I know that isn't how you should look at it, but tha…

The practical difference is that with on-device scanning, the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device, instead of just the ones that are about to be uploaded. With server-side scanning, the separation is clear—what's on Apple's server can be scanned, and what's only on your phone cannot. This all plays so perfectly into my long-time fears about the locked down nature of the iPhone…

With server-side scanning, the separation is clear

In all these threads everyone is coming close to the crux of the issue, but I want to restate it in clearer terms:

There is a sacrosanct line between "public" and "private," "mine" and "yours." That line cannot be crossed by Western governments without a warrant. Cloud computing has deliberately blurred this line over time. This on-device scanning implementation blows right past that line.

Our tools before the computing revolution, and our devices after, become a part of us. Our proprioception extends to include them as part of "self." A personal device -- a tool that should be wholly owned and wholly dependable, like pen and paper -- that betrays its user, is a self that betrays itself.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#148

Post by DarkmSparks »

azinman2 wrote: post #123
DarkmSparks wrote: post #61

There are two things that make me think this will be walked back. Firstly, and most importantly, this kind of backdoor is the kind of thing that makes big corps prohibit the use/purchases of devices. Secondly, it seems rife for abuse: dont like someone who uses an ios device, msg them some cp and destroy their entire life.

> Secondly, it seems rife for abuse: dont like someone who uses an ios device, msg them some cp and destroy their entire life. I see this a lot. First of all, if you even have CP in the first place that seems quite bad and that you've made yourself vulnerable. Messaging someone will also reveal yourself as the sender. But my bigger question of this hypothetical issue is that Facebook, Google, Dropbox, Microsoft, etc…

>Messaging someone will also reveal yourself as the sender

Sending a link to 4chan /b would probably be enough. Or a hidden iFrame in a forum post.

Its very very easy to get images onto someones device without their consent, getting them to upload them to a 3rd party is completely different.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#149

Post by xoa »

pehtis wrote: post #95
jonplackett wrote: post #5

In their attempt to make this extra private by scanning 'on device', I think they've managed to make it feel worse. If they scan my iCloud photos in iCloud, well lots of companies scan stuff when you upload it. It's on their servers, they're responsible for it. They don't want to be hosting CSAM. It feels much worse them turning your own, trusty iPhone against you. I know that isn't how you should look at it, but tha…

Yes, thats exactly how i feel. I'd still hate it if my iCloud uploads are scanned but I'm already assuming that anyway. But the fact that my iOS device can potentially report me to any authorities, for whatever reason, is crossing a line that makes it impossible to ever own an iPhone again. I bought my first one in 2007 so I'm not saying this lightly.. Does anybody know if this policy will extend to macOS too?

>Does anybody know if this policy will extend to macOS too?

I don't see how it could be in the same way, or at least it only could be on brand new ARM Macs right? The thing is that at least on Intel Macs Apple simply doesn't control the whole stack. I mean, obviously, while more effort it's perfectly possible to get x86 macOS running virtualized or directly on non-Apple hardware entirely. So any shenanigans they try to pull there can get subverted or outright patched out. Without the whole hardware trust chain and heavy lock down like they have on iOS this sort of effort, even if attempted, becomes less threatening. I guess we'll see what they go for though :(. They could certainly make it pretty nasty anyway so as much as anything it's more of a forlorn hope they'll mainly focus on low hanging fruit.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#150

Post by azinman2 »

sethammons wrote: post #134
azinman2 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is engaging in this activity of their own free will for sake of their own commercial gain What's the commercial gain?

More access to markets subject to totalitarian regimes

I'm assuming you're kidding here, but if you look at the list of countries already selling/supporting iPhones, what's not on the US export ban list that's a totalitarian regime?

https://www.apple.com/iphone/cellular/

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