For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm • Hacker News Board

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#371

Post by xtracto » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

aix1 wrote: post #355

xtracto wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is alreasy solved by PEOs (professional employment orgs) who take care of all the employment bureaucracy for you. They are a booming business like Globalization Partners, Via.work among several others. They are good for the company because they streamline hiring people in other countries and they are good for the employee because they provide all employnent requirements by law in their country.

In this model, what's the worker's status in the eyes of the organisation requiring their services? Am I right thinking they're more of a temp-vendor-contractor variety than a full-time employee?

Yes. They are a contractor basically. Of course in practice it depends on the company culture how they are treated.

I setup a 20 people office here in Mexico for a startup. All being paid by PEO for 3 years. We got stock options and all the benefits (even more due to Mexican labour law).

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#372

Post by Clubber » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #273

What bothers me more is that these tech companies aren’t even trying to have a conversation with their employees. If they did a survey and collected opinions from their employees the decision would be pretty trivial. But the managerial gang knows that and they want to side step it. The companies want to pretend they care about the employees. They claim to be giving them perks. In reality, these perks are just gamific…

>What bothers me more is that these tech companies aren’t even trying to have a conversation with their employees.

I would wager most if not all tech execs today have never experienced a walkout, a strike, or a simultaneous mass exodus of any sort before. I'm not saying that will happen, but it's more likely today than any time I can remember.

They also have golden parachutes generously granted by the shareholders, so if the company implodes, no real skin off their back.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#373

Post by genezeta » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

aix1 wrote: post #345

genezeta wrote: post #225

I'm doing interviews now and, naturally, the question comes up. Am I looking for a remote position? Would I mind that the position is only partially so? Or that it is fully on-site? Obviously it's just anecdotal data , and I'm in Europe. So take this with a grain of salt, but I'd say: * There has undoubtedly been a big rise in remote positions, but not a huge one. Many of these seem to come from companies willing to…

I'm curious about the practicalities of the employer being based in one country and the employee, another. Furthermore, let's say they're not both in the EU as that would simplify things. What are the practicalities in terms of employment law, taxation etc. I understand that every situation is unique and am looking for personal experiences/anecdotes rather than generalisations.

If one of the parts is outside the EU, things get more complicated. This is a reason why some work as freelancers/contractors. It simplifies things. The company may offer some help with the bureaucracy, but the people I know all have ended using a local third-party service to manage all that, anyway.

Also, consider something else. Many companies, even if they are outside the EU, may already have an EU-based subsidiary. Once they have that, contracting in all the EU will go through that and simplify things a lot since it will effectively be a contract within the EU again. This is the case for a couple of friends I know.

I can't tell you anything for the case where the employee is the one outside the EU, sorry.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#374

Post by midrus » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #196

midrus wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

It may look reasonable from your viewpoint, but imagine applying the same logic across the board: my parents are retired and get their pension from their former job in the city, but they moved to the country side. Should they get their pension slashed because living costs is now lower to them ? Or try applying that at a micro level, and renegotiate your salary every time you move in a city because your rent has chang…

Pension is not work.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#375

Post by jxidjhdhdhdhfhf » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

There's also the commute time factor and prepping for work (dressing, shaving, prepping work lunch, etc). If commuting + prepping takes 1.5 hours each day, then eliminating that would save you ~375 hours per year, equivalent to ~18% of your hours worked.

I wish my employer would give me the option of remote, even if it did come with a paycut.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#376

Post by midrus » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

gdaramouskas wrote: post #181

midrus wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

I think that the salary should not be a percentage of your life cost rather of the value you create. Therefore the salary should stay the same wherever I am located.

Salaries are fine as they are...it is based by the value you provide to the company, multiplied by a factor depending on where you live.

If we do what the egocentric people here want "pay me 250k a year because that's what I'm worth" then only USA based companies would do software and everyone else in the world would be growing tomatoes (as they seem to think).

How would a company in India compete with that?

If you are earning a silicon valley salary and pretend to move anywhere in the world and keep your salary because "that's what I'm worth" I have two news for you: 1) it won't happen, companies are not stupid. 2) you have a big ego problem.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#377

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #327

lexapro wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So everyone living in a city should have to move to a cheaper area because their pay was cut for no reason? If anything the company should be paying more, because they save money on office space which now the employee is covering.

That would happen if there's no pay cut. Why would I live in NYC, Hong Kong or London if I can get the same salary and live like a king in a cheaper country? The pay cut will not apply to people working remotely in an expensive city (at least it doesn't in my company)

[deleted]

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#378

Post by midrus » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #209

midrus wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

It's not unfair at all. If you produce the same as someone in SV then you are worth the SV salary since the company is willing to pay it to someone in SV in the first place! No, the point is that, obviously, company do try not to pay more than they have to. They know that if you live in a cheap location where there may not be too many opportunities you will likely accept a lower salary so that's exactly what they do.…

This is just the argument SV people don't want to hear. Of course I want my 200k and live in a cheap place.

What irks me is the ego, people thinking they're really worth a fortune....companies where (and are) fighting for talent, true...but now that remote is unifying the market salaries will raise where they were too low and high salaries will go down where they were too high. We're just hearing the denial phase of the high salaries people.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#379

Post by midrus » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

fabioborellini wrote: post #199

TeMPOraL wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does indeed sound like a trivial problem to solve. Pick a local restaurant and treat it as your new cafeteria. Come lunch time, go there. Ideally, your employer would compensate you for the office benefit you're missing (at least when talking about pandemic-induced forced WFH), but WFH is likely already saving you more money, so you can probably afford it anyway.

It's not that trivial to have a one-hour lunch break if the local restaurant is 30 minutes away, near by the closed office. In some countries the suburbs have very few services. Also, if the subsidized commute costs 3 euros a day it is also not trivial to spend 14 euros for lunch.

Do we really need this baby sitting? Are we seriously complaining of working from home, not having to commute, and cooking our own food is a problem? In the age of groceries delivery from a click on my phone.

I just can't believe it. World is going to hell and were like crying babies that can't prepare a meal by themselves.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#380

Post by midrus » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

jusssi wrote: post #206

TeMPOraL wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does indeed sound like a trivial problem to solve. Pick a local restaurant and treat it as your new cafeteria. Come lunch time, go there. Ideally, your employer would compensate you for the office benefit you're missing (at least when talking about pandemic-induced forced WFH), but WFH is likely already saving you more money, so you can probably afford it anyway.

The available selection could be a problem. Near my home, there's a sushi place, two pizzerias, a Subway, a chinese and some cafes that don't really serve anything I'd call lunch. After 1½ years I'm sick of all of them. I've been ordering from further away, but that costs 50-100% more, and many types of food lose quality in transit. Compared to the 30+ places reachable by foot within 45min lunch break at the office (…

Just go to the supermarket and cook real food like 99% of the population that's not dying from hunger does.