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Default disappearing messages

signal.org

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Re: Default disappearing messages

#181

Post by swiley »

wolverine876 wrote: post #161
swiley wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the subtext here is that Signal thinks people's phones are going to be increasingly compromised Phones are compromised by default. E2EE doesn't matter if someone else owns both ends.

> Phones are compromised by default The issue is a matter of degree. Everything and everyone are compromised to some degree; perfection is not the standard.

How about I rephrase it then: The popular mobile OS vendors as a matter of policy exfiltrate data from the phone to third parties, either for free or for pay. Phones are compromised by default to a very high degree.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#182

Post by Y_Y »

h_anna_h wrote: post #180
Vinnl wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person who initiates the conversation does, yes; that is already the case today. However, you can change the conversation settings not to do that. Of course, if the other party would prefer history to be deleted, it's generally nice to go along with that.

> However, you can change the conversation settings not to do that. Can I do that without the other party knowing or being able to override it? I would check it myself but signal requires a phone number so I can't.

Looking in the app I can't see a way to do that. It seems like you just set an expiry time which applies to the chat as a whole, and anyone in the chat can change it, which sends a notification (which doesn't expire). Maybe you could patch it and build your own client though.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#183

Post by wolverine876 »

swiley wrote: post #181
wolverine876 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phones are compromised by default The issue is a matter of degree. Everything and everyone are compromised to some degree; perfection is not the standard.

How about I rephrase it then: The popular mobile OS vendors as a matter of policy exfiltrate data from the phone to third parties, either for free or for pay. Phones are compromised by default to a very high degree.

Yes, I strongly agree.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#184

Post by mike_hock »

Vinnl wrote: post #179
mike_hock wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If every phone (or most phones) collect all messages, because it's the default, only either phone of the conversing parties needs to be eventually compromised to leak the entire conversation, even years later.

Sure, and if everybody uses WhatsApp and stores all messages on their phones, the entire conversation can eventually be leaked as well. If you don't want conversations to be stored, you can choose not to store them just like you can choose to use Signal. I don't see the problem here.

Your peer will likely still store the conversation if it is opt-out

Re: Default disappearing messages

#185

Post by AwaAwa »

godelski wrote: post #136
chucky wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The default, if I'm reading the article correctly, is to not disappear messages. What's new is the ability to disappear messages by default for all conversations, instead of having to remember to set it for each conversation. For some people (e.g. journalists) this is exactly what they need, because forgetting to set disappearing before sending a message could be problematic, and I'm glad they added this feature for…

Exactly this. But I wish Signal allowed us more time. They give us a custom option but it is extremely limited. Seconds, minutes, and hours are what one would expect. Days you can only set up to 6. Weeks you can select {1,2,3,4}. I don't see a reason these can't be arbitrary numbers. 3 months, 6 months, and a year are also another obvious points at which people want to delete. But why not just arbitrary? If it isn't…

> Signal isn't large enough to make people stick around when dumb decisions are made)

Boy does this hit close to home, whenever I think of Firefox and its accelerating decline.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#186

Post by Vinnl »

mike_hock wrote: post #184
Vinnl wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and if everybody uses WhatsApp and stores all messages on their phones, the entire conversation can eventually be leaked as well. If you don't want conversations to be stored, you can choose not to store them just like you can choose to use Signal. I don't see the problem here.

Your peer will likely still store the conversation if it is opt-out

If you turn on disappearing messages, their Signal client will delete the messages unless they turn it off again. And of course they'll always be able to take a screenshot of your message before it disappears - it does not work if your conversation partner is your adversary. But if you care about messages disappearing and your partner doesn't mind, you can set them to disappear and they will disappear from both your devices.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#187

Post by Vinnl »

h_anna_h wrote: post #180
Vinnl wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person who initiates the conversation does, yes; that is already the case today. However, you can change the conversation settings not to do that. Of course, if the other party would prefer history to be deleted, it's generally nice to go along with that.

> However, you can change the conversation settings not to do that. Can I do that without the other party knowing or being able to override it? I would check it myself but signal requires a phone number so I can't.

No, your client will send a message to the other participants saying that conversation history is now stored. Of course, you can just take screenshots or memorise the messages and write them something else - as mentioned in TFA, the feature is not meant to be used with an adversary.
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