For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm • Hacker News Board

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#331

Post by w_t_payne » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 10:50 AM UTC

Everyone is different. I've spent three or four years working remotely, and I'd say I do better in an office. I like the routine that it gives me, and I like the human face-to-face contact. I especially like the energetic creative discussions clustered around whiteboards that you never seem to get so much when working from home.

Having said that, without endless meetings and distractions, working from home can definitely be a lot more productive ... it's just that after a while (a year or so) I start to feel hollowed out without human company.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#332

Post by nickjj » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 10:50 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #119

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats. You can't duplicate that with Slack messages or scheduled Zoom meetings. Of course you can. You just have to allow it. Here's where "human nature" bites most management in the ass. What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people i…

> Treat them as R&D employees. Start paying them for doing random crap on company time and resources, no strings attached. Then you'll have innovation.

I think this is really important and it's often overlooked by a lot of companies. It's also one major component of what keeps me being a freelance worker.

Most of my decent ideas come while I'm walking around, maybe 3 miles away from my workstation and I also learn a ton of job related things while not directly working "on the job" with random self guided R&D and other activities that I like doing around tech (writing blog posts, podcast host, etc.).

But most companies don't see it that way. IMO it's unreasonable to expect a salary worker to put in 9 hour days (no paid lunch), be on-call 365/24/7 for emergencies (also not compensated for) and then be expected to do continuous learning and other "this is work related but not directly related to work" activities after hours without compensation. This is exactly how you end up with burnt out employees even if the person enjoys tech. The critical component is the no strings attached. R&D needs to be no strings attached otherwise it feels forced or you're fighting the system by having to cram it in after hours since you can't do it on company time but then you're also left feeling like you're being taken advantage of because it's not compensated for.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#333

Post by caskstrength » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 10:52 AM UTC

smorgusofborg wrote: post #329

caskstrength wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has always been the case that if employee "disagrees" with management decision that their ass should be in the office 5 days a week, then they will have to find a new job. Now this could become up to consensus inside the team, which in my opinion is much better and fairer approach. BTW team doesn't have to chose between two strict options (WFH or office 5 days a week). Another options could be hybrid office work o…

> It has always been the case that if employee "disagrees" with management decision that their ass should be in the office 5 days a week, then they will have to find a new job. Not really. You negotiate with a boss who has to consider how your deal will affect other's deals. The deal environment changed so the deals they need to make are going to change. Everyone voting on the same deal that is compatible with all ro…

> Not really. You negotiate with a boss who has to consider how your deal will affect other's deals. The deal environment changed so the deals they need to make are going to change.

I'm in a team that has multiple "remote" people since before pandemic. We all can't suddenly show up to single office because we are on three different continents, so, obviously, there is not much risk of our deal changing to something more strict.

> Everyone voting on the same deal that is compatible with all roles in a group and strikes everyone as fair to them is just a less ideal negotiation that will make arbitrary decisions when the group changes. (I.e. the manager wants everyone in office so they hire a lot of interns and juniors who vote that way for the local help they need.)

I assume that company with such malicious management wouldn't conduct the vote in the first place.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#334

Post by chii » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 10:53 AM UTC

rytis wrote: post #217

null_object wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't wait to get back to the office. > being home and having no external pressure to keep working > it was easy to get out of the bed and go work out > I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria > still in my underpants at home after work it is way harder to dress up and go do stuff The paradox in this situation, is that some employers are considering cutting the pay [0] of people who have the self-discipli…

Intuitively, I'd think, it should be the opposite - no need to pay for the office space, money saved, can give that to the employees. But no, instead - save money on the office, and then save even more on the salaries. Just wow.

> then save even more on the salaries

the problem is that remote is seen as a benefit (which it is), and so naturally must be priced as part of the salary.

The fact that being remote requires some discipline, and this discipline makes for a better employee doesn't play into it - because a employer would already expect such discipline, whether it actually exists or not.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#335

Post by vimy » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 10:54 AM UTC

When we have VR/AR tech that will make it possible for realistic avatars of people, body language and all, to “appear” in your living room, that’s when WFH will really take off.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#336

Post by AntiWFH » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 11:02 AM UTC

KronisLV wrote: post #208

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

> I can't wait to get back to the office. That is a valid point, since different people work better in different settings. I am personally in the opposite group. > I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (No…

Get cancer and die.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#337

Post by thealig » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 11:02 AM UTC

jimsimmons wrote: post #256

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

Eat your veggies, kids are dying in Africa

I lost it while reading your comment...

Honestly, I get how the sentiment of "suck it up, you are privileged" is sometimes annoying.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#338

Post by 3grdlurker » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 11:12 AM UTC

peakaboo wrote: post #150

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

> I can't wait to get back to the office. > I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) > It also hel…

You see it as OC making excuses or not having discipline, I see it as you wasting valuable time by taking it upon yourself to do things you can ask or pay others to do for you. You might as well reprehend OP for working smart because you work unnecessarily hard.

I mean, the attack is so deeply personal yet you don’t know anything about OC’s circumstances. Maybe OC knows how to cook a little but he really sucks at it? Or he’s just not interested? Or he doesn’t have as much free space at home as you do? There are so many possibilities and you’re very quick to blame it on discipline, lol.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#339

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 11:13 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

[deleted]

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#340

Post by cblconfederate » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 11:14 AM UTC

whitepaint wrote: post #241

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

> for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour > I have to say about computer programmers and their entitlement > you're already overpaid for shit that's not going to kill you Why overpaid? Programmers create huge amount of value and they are paid accordingly.

revenue is not value