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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#111

Post by DoingIsLearning »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #24

I'd hate to go back to working in an office. I live in the countryside now and it's great. However I realise it may not always be so easy. So: - I'm self employed. Foreign companies aren't going to set up a branch office just to employ me. Purchasing my services however is easy. - I've niched down to a business vertical, and I'm starting to niche down more technically as well. No more "I'm a full stack developer with…

> write software for the agricultural sector.

Could you go into more detail? Enterprise software, embedded software, industrial PLC's? Agro is one industry that I would expect quite difficult to work remotely since there is usually some form of physical system that you deploy on a farm. I would be really curious to know more about your gig?

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#112

Post by higeorge13 »

Most HN posts always compare with FAANG jobs and salaries, while there is a whole different world out there.

For instance, in Europe and especially low-paid countries in the south or eastern Europe, i foresee zero chance that top talent will stay in their countries to be given low salaries for jobs with local/low impact. These people are already working or looking to work remotely to companies in richer countries (e.g. UK, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland) and are already profiting for this. I personally switched to a remote-only job and got the biggest raise of my career, with a salary that no local company can match unless we are talking C-level manager position.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#113

Post by eyelidlessness »

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

Weird. My non FAANG company that’s all open source and all remote and distributed all over doesn’t seem to be having any trouble.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#114

Post by ridaj »

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

I think it's too early to tell what's going to happen with silicon valley companies. The chips are still way up in the air. They profess a return to office, and many people can't wait to go back. But there's also a lot of people who don't want to go back, from the coder at the bottom who discovers they can be as productive from home, see their family more, and shave hours of commute every day, to the exec who's been going to the office only to sit in a videoconference room all day anyways, so might as well do it all from a posh home in New Zealand (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/technology/2021/07/new-zealan...)

It's going to kill the spirit of the place. It's going to come with challenges of how to enable productive conversations. Maybe people will get together physically on occasion. But I don't know if the genie of personal mobility can be put back into the bottle and right now there seems to be a lot of employee reshuffling based on work arrangement preferences.

As for that mythical hallway chat that sparks a brilliant insight at the root of a massively disruptive business win, in my experience, it's that — a myth. I feel like I've personally had much more insightful casual conversations and professional relationship building via interest-dedicated chatrooms and regular video calls in the past year than in the past decade of striking conversations around the coffee machine.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#115

Post by nextlevelwizard »

peakaboo wrote: post #30
ram_rar wrote: post #16

Right now companies havent figured out how to handle this situation and are playing along. I'm sure, sooner or later tides will turn and either you'll be roped into coming to office or take a pay cut for working remotely. So enjoy while it last!!

That's a proper slave mentality right there. I suggest you instead think like this "what will I do to continue working remotely? Which company will I pick?".

And what if the only remote working option is to get paid less? Is that still "slave mentality"?

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#116

Post by anothernewdude »

jmfldn wrote: post #66
mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

Agree on most counts apart from the efficient communication angle. Purely anecdotal but I find that the number of meetings has grown significantly since constant WFH became the norm. In the past, most meetings required a meeting room whereas now, as long as the meeting organiser can see that most people have an open space in their calendar, a meeting can be arranged. Not an insurmountable problem but I find myself pr…

Even in an office, if you want to get work done, you block out your own time.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#117

Post by basisword »

oblio wrote: post #41
BrissyCoder wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.

Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…

This depends highly on where you live. If you live somewhere with at-will employment you have very little power in this situation. If you live somewhere with...basic employment regulations then it's a very different situation.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#118

Post by axiolite »

Teever wrote: post #96
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. As a person who lives in a geologically stable region I have to chuckle because it is entirely possible that this comment will age as terribly as that 'which country is best equipped to deal with a pandemic (2019) post that we saw recently. I don't deny the part of your comment about in person interactions being the foundat…

> With rising sea levels and the fault lines in the region I'm aghast that so many of America's eggs are in one precarious basket

Earthquakes don't kill people, buildings kill people... Building codes in California are strict for just this reason. Most people will get through with minor injuries, and some inconveniences from utility and transit outages. The Bay Area will likely fare better than Los Angeles, which is likely to lose access to its water supplies..

As for flooding, check the history of Sacramento. Over a few years they systematically raised the street level and most of the buildings in the city. Now it's one of the highest areas and least affected by floods in the region. Why this tact wasn't taken in New Orleans after Katrina is beyond me.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#119

Post by TeMPOraL »

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats. You can't duplicate that with Slack messages or scheduled Zoom meetings.

Of course you can. You just have to allow it.

Here's where "human nature" bites most management in the ass. What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people involved are slacking off. Those are the brief moments where employees are not being judged for not being glued to their screens. They're not being judged for interrupting other people, perhaps from unrelated departments.

A remote environment doesn't provide such opportunities for unofficially approved, cross-team slacking off. So you have to compensate. Give people greater visibility into who's doing who, and give explicit permission to engage in casual chats. Reduce pressure, particularly around deadlines. Give people their slack back.

I find it ironic that companies want everyone to do spontaneous R&D work, but they rely on it happening spontaneously due to inefficiencies of office environment. Want people to do R&D work? Treat them as R&D employees. Start paying them for doing random crap on company time and resources, no strings attached. Then you'll have innovation.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#120

Post by systemvoltage »

acituan wrote: post #105
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats When was the last time you've used a big corp product that so…

> They will make you work from office because they can, because that is easier on the managers and execs.

I think there are 1980's style regimented companies such as GE, Bayer and IBM that like to monitor their employees. There is a wide range of company cultures, what I call office-barracks; a soulless, unending array of employees with 8 digit ID numbers. Some even get corner offices. And then there are companies where people get together in physical space and kick ass.

I think you're not addressing the latter.

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