So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story) • Hacker News Board

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#41

Post by demallien » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 3:14 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #40

demallien wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's a Russell's Teapot ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot ) kind of argument. You're rejecting the survey results because they go against your prejudices, not based on evidence (or at least that seems to be what you are claiming, if you have evidence that Apple's performance vis-à-vis it's clients is sub-par, you certainly haven't presented it). And no matter what survey results that anyone cou…

Please, if you want to disagree, disagree with what I've said, not with an arbitrary strawman.

What strawman? I was addressing your own words, specifically 'Why would I need a second survey? I already distrust the conclusion.'

You do indeed seem to be reacting based on a prejudice against the conclusion of the first survey, without having any other data to back you up. As I said, if you have any other evidence to support your point of view, you have never presented it. Of course, if you do have other evidence to bring to the table, I for one would be fascinated to see it. As far as I'm aware, every recent measure of customer satisfaction with Apple that has been reported in the press shows them well in advance of the competition. The latest survey quoted by Gruber just confirms previous surveys done by many different organisations.

Do you have any evidence to contradict these findings?

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#42

Post by keyes » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 3:43 PM UTC

nuclear_eclipse wrote: post #38

keyes wrote: post #28

I love my MBP, but in my experience AppleCare support is horrible compared to the competition. If something goes wrong with your Dell laptop, they will send a technician out to you the next day and repair it on-site. If something goes wrong with your Mac, you have to make an appointment to take it to an Apple store, and you may have to leave it there for up to a week while it gets repaired.

> If something goes wrong with your Dell laptop, they will send a technician out to you the next day and repair it on-site. Only if you paid extra for that service option. The default phone-support and ship-it-back-for-service warranties that you get with most Dell machines by default is likely no better than Apple. However, I must say that if you get the upgraded support from Dell, especially the type that comes wit…

Sorry if I was unclear. I was comparing Dell support with AppleCare, which you also pay quite a bit for.

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#43

Post by nadim » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 4:52 PM UTC

demallien wrote: post #31

nadim wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about in general, but I think they presented good supporting evidence in this case.

Not really, Arrington presented anecdotal evidence, and Gruber smacked him down with a survey contradicting the anecdotal evidence. Unless some new evidence comes to light, Gruber's point of view holds more weight.

When I said 'they' I was referring to Daring Fireball.

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#44

Post by narag » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 5:29 PM UTC

demallien wrote: post #41

narag wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, if you want to disagree, disagree with what I've said, not with an arbitrary strawman.

What strawman? I was addressing your own words, specifically 'Why would I need a second survey? I already distrust the conclusion.' You do indeed seem to be reacting based on a prejudice against the conclusion of the first survey, without having any other data to back you up. As I said, if you have any other evidence to support your point of view, you have never presented it. Of course, if you do have other evidence…

>What strawman?

You say that I reject survey results. I don't. I say that the survey isn't enough evidence to prove that Apple's customer support is better. So I don't need to give data to disprove something that hasn't been sufficiently proved. In fact, I'm not trying to prove anything at all. Someone else is and I'm simply not convinced. You asked how could the data be interpreted otherwise and I answered. But that doesn't put me in the obligation of demonstrating anything.

Moreover, you're using a fallacious argument: since the survey establishes that Apple offers better customer support, I have to bring data to disprove it. The problem is that the survey falls short to demonstrate what you want. The fact of the better support is not established so there's no need to disprove it.

That doesn't mean that the survey is incorrect or its results false. Just that the conclusion DF extracts from it is not what the survey says.

One survey of "satisfaction" measures a subjetive factor. To say "it's better" is an absolute affirmation. What's really "better"? Who is it better for? Have those customer experience with other customer support services? Or is the support comparing... Apple with oranges? Excuse the bad joke.

I wouldn't have any problem with a wording like "of course there will be cases of bad support, but current data suggests that it's actually pretty good in average", But the post in DF said bluntly that "the survey demonstrate that Apple's support is better". Period. I try to imagine what a customer that had had a bad experience with Apple would think about such a reasoning.

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#45

Post by greyman » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 6:14 PM UTC

comatose_kid wrote: post #22

greyman wrote: post #15

>> But is Apple doing a far better job than any of its competitors? Yes. No.

You might be right, but it's a little hard to agree with a one word statement.

This is exactly the point I wanted to communicate to the blog author.

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#46

Post by demallien » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 6:42 PM UTC

nadim wrote: post #43

demallien wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, Arrington presented anecdotal evidence, and Gruber smacked him down with a survey contradicting the anecdotal evidence. Unless some new evidence comes to light, Gruber's point of view holds more weight.

When I said 'they' I was referring to Daring Fireball.

My bad :-) Being a Daring Fireball regular, I just think of it as being Gruber - hence a use of 'they' indicates someone else for me. That'll teach me to pay a bit more attention when reading!

Re: So Apple is 'flailing,' eh? (re: TechCrunch story)

#47

Post by cosmo7 » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 7:25 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #35

demallien wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you interpret the survey results that Gruber presented?

I'm not greyman, but anyway... maybe the survey is detecting a different culture: people that owns a Mac gives higher scores to customer service not because it's better, but because they feel more satisfied with their computers. That feeling might come from many reasons. I wouldn't use it as an argument without a detailed survey that evaluates things like response time, charges for reparations, or kindness of persona…

Unlike Apple, most PC makers seem to feel a $399 POS is an obligatory part of their line.

It is not inconceivable that those types of product - oversold underdeliverers - are the ones that bump up the PC numbers.