Done with YC: Age Discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#131

Post by cudgy » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #46

I have a partially completed YC application — Once I came across the (required) age field I simply decided to not go any further. I appreciate that YC are upfront about age being important because it tells me two things: (1) I shouldn't waste my time and (2) YC's morals are not in alignment with mine anyhow. Regarding the latter: It's not a huge deal - I can understand why they do it. Screening based on age is just n…

Good point. At least they make it obvious that they will discriminate based on your age, or why do they ask? They aren’t creating marketing lists.

I wonder if startups that get accepted into the program are also advised to bias toward younger new hires as well. Seems consistent with the acceptance criteria of the program.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#132

Post by lawrenceyan » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

You would probably benefit a great deal from finding some co-founders. I think the age discrimination, while possibly true, is far outweighed by you being a solo-founder.

Having a combo of younger / older co-founder composition could actually be a comparative advantage if you do it right probably.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#133

Post by blagie » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #110

blagie wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's precisely why being an older person helps. You have experience under your belt. If you're 55 and have never done anything, that's a strong signal to not invest in you, since you're unlikely to do something now. 20-year-olds are risks. 55-year-old have track records.

This doesn't make sense. What is "never done anything" supposed to mean? I've worked with people in their 50s who have never raised money or started their own business but are incredibly capable with knowledge, experience and connections that would give them a massive advantage if they were to compete against younger founders.

It means precisely that -- if you're in your 50s, and have the experience of someone in their 20s, that's a red flag.

Good:

- You ran a successful business

- You managed a division at Google

- You were faculty at an elite university

- You were a management consultant at an elite firm, and build out a rolodex of elite connections

- You had a diverse array of jobs which give you a unique skillset for the startup at hand. For example, if you worked in a hospital, in China, and as an EE, you might be in a unique position to start a medical devices outsourcing firm.

Etc.

Bad:

- Spending 35 years as a SWE at a random company.

- A series of random jobs, with no coherence or anything of note (e.g. sales rep, admin, IT, etc.)

- ... and so on.

"incredibly capable with knowledge, experience and connections that would give them a massive advantage" means you can either get funding from a friend who knows you, or you probably want to find some way to signal that. If you haven't found a way to signal that in 35 years, odds are you won't be able to e.g. signal why someone should partner with you, buy your product, work for you, etc.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#134

Post by blagie » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #63

blagie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an older founder, it's easier to raise $20M Series A than as a younger founder. I'm pretty confident I have a much better chance of raising money than I did a decade or two ago. To be specific, I think I would have had almost no chance way back when, and I think I'd probably have better-than-even-odds today, if I tried (which I wouldn't; I'm committed to what I'm doing). However, that doesn't mean places don't age…

The move to SFBA is a real issue, and an obstacle for anyone with family commitments. I'm not sure what they can realistically do about it, since part of the premise of the program is that you're benefiting from being physically proximate to them. The rest of this, I think you're wrong about. I'm at a YC company right now (Fly.io) --- technically, I'm a YC founder at Fly.io --- and I've spent the last several years w…

Please read the YC text again.

The problem isn't the offer, so much as the rationale behind the offer. It's perfectly possible to make a similar offer without being ageist:

* Grad schools do that. "Learn; we'll give you $24k per year as a stipend."

* YC could pitch the $125k, a for example, a means to improve inclusiveness and DEI.

* Etc.

That's not what they do. They say that the program is for founding teams for whom $125k will cover a half-year of expenses, at least. That means young teams. There's a lot of ageist copy from YC. That's why I assume I'm not welcome there.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#135

Post by smithmayowa » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #99

over50 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's it, kind of. I would say "Done thinking YC is the right fit for me" could be more accurate. Of course, now they've flagged the thread, so not sure if any of this discussion matters. Instead of cancelling the discussion, it should be actively promoted. I am not accusing of YC doing anything explicitly. I think they make the right decisions when it comes to what you need in a young team in order to succeed. An e…

They didn't cancel the discussion; users did. I didn't flag this thread, but thought about it. It's got nothing to do with the validity of your argument. I'm in my 40s, am alert to ageism, and tend to think it's a real thing. But threads like this, where there's barely even circumstantial evidence in the story as presented (the whole story might be much clearer!) tend to be total shitshows as threads. I think the bia…

Unrelated and I expect to be downvoted but you were right https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1428764

The U.S did leave Afghanistan and now the Taliban's are about taking over, I'm always stunned when I see decade old predictions that were accurate.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#136

Post by tptacek » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #134

tptacek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The move to SFBA is a real issue, and an obstacle for anyone with family commitments. I'm not sure what they can realistically do about it, since part of the premise of the program is that you're benefiting from being physically proximate to them. The rest of this, I think you're wrong about. I'm at a YC company right now (Fly.io) --- technically, I'm a YC founder at Fly.io --- and I've spent the last several years w…

Please read the YC text again. The problem isn't the offer, so much as the rationale behind the offer. It's perfectly possible to make a similar offer without being ageist: * Grad schools do that. "Learn; we'll give you $24k per year as a stipend." * YC could pitch the $125k, a for example, a means to improve inclusiveness and DEI. * Etc. That's not what they do. They say that the program is for founding teams for wh…

Again, I'm (technically) a YC founder, I'm in my 40's, and I don't get that at all from the $125k number. If anything, I feel like I have an easier time with first-year startup expenses at this age than I did in my 20s.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#137

Post by dang » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 12:26 AM UTC

cudgy wrote: post #129

dang wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YC doesn't select for "cultural fit".

Or do they simply select for proxy variables like age and marital status that inevitably create a cultural fit?

No, they don't do that either. To mention one data point, there's a founder in the current batch who has three small children and is a solo founder. I don't think YC cares about that sort of thing, other than that the group partners (the people who work most closely with founders) would do what they could to support them if they were getting overwhelmed.

When YC rejects an application it's because they don't think that startup (or that product/founder combination, let's say) is likely to become a big business. That's the theory, at least. Of course it's not going to be perfect in practice, but YC's success depends on getting it right, so there's a strong incentive not to just naively repeat the known, large-scale biases people tend to talk about (you mention age and marital status, one can add race, gender, class, education, national origin, and others).

Also, YC is pretty diligent about studying its failures—companies that applied to YC, were rejected, and went on to become successful—and if there were any obvious patterns in there, you can bet they'd be all over it. I'm not claiming that's sufficient to disprove bias but it must count for something.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#138

Post by blagie » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #136

blagie wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read the YC text again. The problem isn't the offer, so much as the rationale behind the offer. It's perfectly possible to make a similar offer without being ageist: * Grad schools do that. "Learn; we'll give you $24k per year as a stipend." * YC could pitch the $125k, a for example, a means to improve inclusiveness and DEI. * Etc. That's not what they do. They say that the program is for founding teams for wh…

Again, I'm (technically) a YC founder, I'm in my 40's, and I don't get that at all from the $125k number. If anything, I feel like I have an easier time with first-year startup expenses at this age than I did in my 20s.

How is that at all responsive to what I wrote?

I said the $125k number could be fine, if the rationale behind it wasn't ageist. You come back and defend the number.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#139

Post by grawprog » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:19 AM UTC

cudgy wrote: post #130

grawprog wrote: post #20

I've never applied for YC funding, or any kind of seed funding, I don't know much about the world of startups but >YC evaluators are explicitly biased. There is such a thing as unconscious bias. We know and understand this in the racial domain. Yes they are, everyone is, it's the way of it. Yes they know who they want to give their money to. In the end like anyone else, whether it's a job interview or applying for gr…

Based on your description, YC will remain stuck with the same demographics forever and noone that meets those metrics should bother applying. Case closed.

Yeah...I'd say so. They're a bunch of people with lots of money, trying to make more money, that's reality.

All this wishy, washy feelings bullshit the world is focused on doesn't really matter when it comes to making money when it involves people with lots of money. That shit doesn't actually matter to the people in power. That's just for the peasants to distract themselves with so.they spend more money making the people with money more money.

All that matters to any VC providing seed funding is, 'will I make money?' That's it. That's the only thing that matters. Who you are, your story, your bullshit...Nah...that's just marketing you use to make those rich fucks invest in you in the hopes that you all make money.

That's the truth of YC or any other person offering money to your company in exchange for future profits.

Who you are only matters as far as 'will who you are make profit?'

If it won't well, you're shit outta luck buds.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#140

Post by tptacek » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #138

tptacek wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm (technically) a YC founder, I'm in my 40's, and I don't get that at all from the $125k number. If anything, I feel like I have an easier time with first-year startup expenses at this age than I did in my 20s.

How is that at all responsive to what I wrote? I said the $125k number could be fine, if the rationale behind it wasn't ageist. You come back and defend the number.

The rationale isn't ageist.