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Default disappearing messages

signal.org

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Re: Default disappearing messages

#141

Post by AnonHP »

The disappearing messages timer settings are really convoluted and complex. It could've been a lot more flexible without adding more complexity to the code.

This is not going to change why I don't use Signal as much though. I try to partition my conversation modes if possible (since not many people I know use Signal). If there's anything very sensitive or isn't needed after a while, I'd use Signal. The fact that it doesn't even have chat backup and restore for iOS (I'm not talking about transferring from one phone to another when they're in close proximity) forces me to avoid using it for important stuff that I'd prefer to have around. I use Telegram for the conversations that matter, and the fast search feature in Telegram has come to be of great use for more times than I can count or remember. Not to mention Telegram is far too feature rich than Signal can hope to be in the next few years.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#142

Post by tialaramex »

tablespoon wrote: post #112
londons_explore wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disappearing messages by default could further weaken social protections. Police and authorities can have logs (either of everyone or high value targets) and those people won't have access to their own messages to defend themselves. It even means chat conversations can be entirely fabricated by one side, and the other has no way to refute it.

> Disappearing messages by default could further weaken social protections. > Police and authorities can have logs (either of everyone or high value targets) and those people won't have access to their own messages to defend themselves. > It even means chat conversations can be entirely fabricated by one side, and the other has no way to refute it. I don't think that's a realistic threat, and if it was, the defense y…

> it's not like your phone is some inviolable log of what you actually sent.

In some systems, e.g. PGP, messages are digitally signed. This means when I send you a PGP mail, I'm actually providing proof - which anybody can verify - that I really sent that email.

If what you wanted the message platform for was to agree legal contracts maybe that feels like a reasonable structure. Alice sends Bob a PGP mail "I agree to X" and Bob now has a signed message proving this agreement. Bob couldn't have faked that, only Alice could have signed it.

Signal deliberately doesn't do that. Signal messages have cryptographic integrity protection (so Charlie can't send Bob a message pretending to be from Alice) but not signatures, so Bob can fake messages from Alice to Bob because Bob is a participant and so has the keys.

As a result Bob knows if the messages are fake or real, but can't prove that to anybody else. That feels much more like what you want from a platform you use to chat with people, not for making legal contracts.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#143

Post by randomuser87178 »

stavros wrote: post #100
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... you can get cancelled now, when someone disagrees with you here, and starts going through all your old posts/messages/tweets, and finds something that was perfectly OK back then, but now the PC culture deems a cancellable-offence. So yeah, I agree... having things disappear after a reasonable amount of time is a great feature. Sadly, most networks (eg. twitter, facebook,...) don't have this.

> Sadly, most networks (eg. twitter, facebook,...) don't have this. That's why I use a utility called Shreddit and some custom scripts to delete all my reddit/Twitter/whatever posts except the latest N.

Just an FYI, Shreddit is not particularly effective for deleting old Reddit post and commenting history. There is at least one service (Pushshift [1]) which sits at Reddit's API endpoint and hoovers up every single comment and post as they are made in near-real time. These are then archived in the Pushshift database, which is accessible by unauthenticated public API as well as through monthly post and comment JSON dumps.

There are several third-party search engines which use the Pushshift API underneath, most prominently Camas Reddit Search [2]. Ironically, it is way faster and more thorough than Reddit's actual search feature. You can do a full-text search of a specific user's history and filter by subreddit, score, and post date in a couple of seconds.

Since Pushshift contains comments and posts in the state they were made when they were originally posted, editing or deleting them from Reddit proper, or deleting your Reddit account, does nothing to prevent them from being searchable in Pushshift.

Pushshift does support opt-outs, but they have historically been slow to process them. Apparently a new opt-out system will be in place as of this weekend [3].

That said, Pushshift isn't the only Reddit archiving game in town, just the most visible, so even if you opt-out of Pushshift your post history is still probably in somebody else's archive. Also, I'm pretty sure the opt-out just removes your posts from the public API, I think the historical dumps still have your data in them if somebody were motivated enough to download all 80+ TB of them.

Your best bet for preserving privacy on Reddit is to (1) never post identifying details, (2) change accounts periodically, and (3) keep a few alts for commenting on different subreddits, especially if posting on subreddits that somebody can infer identifying details from (eg: the subreddit for your city).

[1] https://pushshift.io/ [2] https://camas.github.io/reddit-search/ [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/pushshift/comments/p2fm0n/deletion_...

Re: Default disappearing messages

#144

Post by stavros »

randomuser87178 wrote: post #143
stavros wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, most networks (eg. twitter, facebook,...) don't have this. That's why I use a utility called Shreddit and some custom scripts to delete all my reddit/Twitter/whatever posts except the latest N.

Just an FYI, Shreddit is not particularly effective for deleting old Reddit post and commenting history. There is at least one service (Pushshift [1]) which sits at Reddit's API endpoint and hoovers up every single comment and post as they are made in near-real time. These are then archived in the Pushshift database, which is accessible by unauthenticated public API as well as through monthly post and comment JSON du…

You are very correct, this just makes it harder for someone who isn't too motivated to find all your posts. Anything you post online should be considered permanent anyway (unless you actually want to find it later, I guess).

Re: Default disappearing messages

#145

Post by upofadown »

tialaramex wrote: post #142
tablespoon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Disappearing messages by default could further weaken social protections. > Police and authorities can have logs (either of everyone or high value targets) and those people won't have access to their own messages to defend themselves. > It even means chat conversations can be entirely fabricated by one side, and the other has no way to refute it. I don't think that's a realistic threat, and if it was, the defense y…

> it's not like your phone is some inviolable log of what you actually sent. In some systems, e.g. PGP, messages are digitally signed . This means when I send you a PGP mail, I'm actually providing proof - which anybody can verify - that I really sent that email. If what you wanted the message platform for was to agree legal contracts maybe that feels like a reasonable structure. Alice sends Bob a PGP mail "I agree t…

Signal messages are effectively signed as part of the protocol. Signal releases data to allow your correspondent to forge that signature after they have received your message. Then you have to attempt to claim a forgery in a system specifically designed to allow such a claim.

PGP does the identity verification out of band. So you can simply not sign your message and completely eliminate the problem in the first place.

So it seems odd to suggest that PGP is inferior to what Signal does.

>This means when I send you a PGP mail, I'm actually providing proof - which anybody can verify - that I really sent that email.

PGP prevents access to signature information with the encryption. So you would need access to the private key of the person I sent the message to before you can verify my signature.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#146

Post by nimbius »

not to get too off-topic but does it feel like Signal is more or less a rudderless ship these days?

nobody asked for this sort of thing, just like no one asked for signals bizarre crypto currency or the security passphrase stuff that comes with a weekly reminder. what we did ask for was a full post-mortem of the outage that crippled the service six months ago, and a better more consistent (and buildable) source code released to the git repo regularly but we still didnt get those.

we've pushed (albeit for a while now) for a decentralized signal...one that would arguably be more resilient and reliable, but still havent seen it. It feels like the projects just doing whatever Moxie wants.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#147

Post by abdullahkhalids »

GistNoesis wrote: post #76

Sorry for the confused rant that follow (Hopefully HN will auto-delete it in 42 hours ): The variable duration of the message adds one additional layer of complexity to the already messy game of social communication. It's not like a session at the park or a phone call that once you close it, it's over. I already had trouble understanding the concept of ephemeral message, like you say something to me but expect me to…

Snapchat already has the notion of disappearing messages (or at least media), and it has remained extremely popular among the young crowd who want to share things with their peers that they don't want recorded.

It's not a super alien concept, but it requires getting used to a new social norm. It is difficult, but I don't think one can really get it without actually embracing the concept without questioning it.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#148

Post by 45ure »

stavros wrote: post #100
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... you can get cancelled now, when someone disagrees with you here, and starts going through all your old posts/messages/tweets, and finds something that was perfectly OK back then, but now the PC culture deems a cancellable-offence. So yeah, I agree... having things disappear after a reasonable amount of time is a great feature. Sadly, most networks (eg. twitter, facebook,...) don't have this.

> Sadly, most networks (eg. twitter, facebook,...) don't have this. That's why I use a utility called Shreddit and some custom scripts to delete all my reddit/Twitter/whatever posts except the latest N.

>That's why I use a utility called Shreddit

I had to search for it, and assume that you are referring to this utility: http://apps.palmtronix.com/shreddit/android/

It makes claims of zeroing out the local storage, but does not seem to do anything with regard to erasing your social media footprint. I would like your recommendation on scripts which comprehensively delete posts/history on Reddit, Twitter et al. and make them unrecoverable.

edit: I just noticed a post by @randomuser87178 which probably answers my query

Re: Default disappearing messages

#149

Post by stavros »

45ure wrote: post #148
stavros wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, most networks (eg. twitter, facebook,...) don't have this. That's why I use a utility called Shreddit and some custom scripts to delete all my reddit/Twitter/whatever posts except the latest N.

>That's why I use a utility called Shreddit I had to search for it, and assume that you are referring to this utility: http://apps.palmtronix.com/shreddit/android/ It makes claims of zeroing out the local storage, but does not seem to do anything with regard to erasing your social media footprint. I would like your recommendation on scripts which comprehensively delete posts/history on Reddit, Twitter et al. and make…

Actually https://pypi.org/project/shreddit/
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