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Default disappearing messages

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Re: Default disappearing messages

#131

Post by EvanAnderson »

jan_Inkepa wrote: post #75
medstrom wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I can't say I've suffered problems from that, and my conversation memory is terrible. Are you sure it's not a matter of attitude, communication style or expectations turning it into a problem for you?

I find it often useful to be able to go back and search through conversations. Even trivial things can become part of a richer back and forth if you can remember + reference them. It helps keep the oblivion of forgetting at bay, which is for me terrifying and really depressing. People who turn on transient messaging, it's their right, and I get it, but it's also hobbling me from doing what I'm quite good at and basic…

My electronic devices are extensions of my biological memory. Just as I don't want my biological memories to fade (and, as you say, that thought is upsetting to me) I don't want my electronic memories to fade either. I don't have life experience that makes me wish to forget. I recognize other people do but I also can't honestly say I understand it. Hopefully I never will since I can only assume the wish to forget accompanies traumatic memories.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#132

Post by EvanAnderson »

stavros wrote: post #123
EvanAnderson wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll qualify that the vast majority of my electronic correspondence is business-related. I just don't really do "personal" electronic communication (text messages, email, video chat) too much. Most of my thoughts are coming from a business perspective, though I do really value having my old personal correspondence too. I'm not using my persistent records to "correct" anybody, per se. For very specific "offensive" sce…

Ah, yes, for business dealings I'd certainly want a record. I was talking more about personal relationships, where I generally want things deleted after a while.

I guess that's where we differ. I want the personal relationship details too. I want it all because, in the end, it's all I have that's mine.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#133

Post by EvanAnderson »

stavros wrote: post #128
EvanAnderson wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The GP said "where other parties recall a verbal conversation differently than me", and what's the benefit there? You have two differing views of a conversation, you can say "oh well I meant X" and move on. I recognize that two people may interpret a conversation differently. The ground truth of what was said has value, though. If I know what was said I can work to tailor future my interactions with that party in a…

Hmm, that's reasonable as well, though I generally find that misunderstandings are more about "I said X and I thought it was only interpretable one way but apparently there was also another interpretation and that's what the listener got". It's not that common (at least in my group) that this is done out of malice, and I'd probably notice if someone had a pattern of "misremembering" conversations for benefit. I see y…

> ... I generally find that misunderstandings are more about "I said X and I thought it was only interpretable one way but apparently there was also another interpretation and that's what the listener got".

I relish knowing about those, too. That's a learning moment for me.

> It's not that common (at least in my group) that this is done out of malice ...

I don't see that in my personal interactions either. I've seen it in business interactions enough to look out for it. I've worked for and along side ethically-challenged individuals who consider agreements subject to interpretation, to their advantage, indefinitely.

(An aside - Thanks for the continued interaction here. I am enjoying it, though I should get back to work. >smile<)

Re: Default disappearing messages

#135

Post by renata »

hemiv12 wrote: post #129
hhlbf wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a rhetorical question?

No I have Signal installed and also have recently came across Session Messenger. I like Signals user experience and was wondering if there are systemic risks to using it.

Yes, they can confirm that you have a Signal account. They actually publish their subpoena responses so you can see exactly what information they have: https://signal.org/bigbrother/central-california-grand-jury/.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#136

Post by godelski »

chucky wrote: post #33
Ericson2314 wrote: post #22

I dunno, I think being able to hoard your own data shouldn't be demonized or valorized? Fine with whatever the default is, but I feel like the subtext here is that Signal thinks people's phones are going to be increasingly compromised so this will be a more necessary, and the "remember the passing acoustic conversation" is just a way to put a less depressing spin on that.

The default, if I'm reading the article correctly, is to not disappear messages. What's new is the ability to disappear messages by default for all conversations, instead of having to remember to set it for each conversation. For some people (e.g. journalists) this is exactly what they need, because forgetting to set disappearing before sending a message could be problematic, and I'm glad they added this feature for…

Exactly this. But I wish Signal allowed us more time. They give us a custom option but it is extremely limited. Seconds, minutes, and hours are what one would expect. Days you can only set up to 6. Weeks you can select {1,2,3,4}. I don't see a reason these can't be arbitrary numbers. 3 months, 6 months, and a year are also another obvious points at which people want to delete. But why not just arbitrary? If it isn't any different, than just let users decide.

It is also still missing a key point we've been asking for for awhile, message archival. That's the big thing keeping me from using disappearing messages, because I don't want to take a screenshot anytime anything important is said. That's a terrible way to search for messages. With an arbitrary delete function (only limit I see is Signal's servers don't accept delete commands after 24hrs) you can have consent from the other party about archiving messages while disappearing messages is on. This provides a tremendous amount of utility.

I used to defend Signal a lot here. But with a lot of decisions they've made in the last year they seem to be just another company that "knows better" than the user. We don't need another tech company that's disconnected from users and makes changes just to make them[0]. (Beyond that, Signal isn't large enough to make people stick around when dumb decisions are made) I think this is a fine stance to take when it comes to the security portion --there are fairly objective "best practices" here-- but not for UI/UX and privacy functions. But with the latter there's a lot of subjective preferences and needs by different people and groups. Signal, you do not need to be and look like WhatsApp. Just be Signal. The progress has been very slow, new features come with footguns, and there is a lack of communication. They only seem to take communication from their community forums which has an extreme echo chamber and is the textbook example of "we know better than you" mentality. It's very frustrating and it's caused me to stop recommending Signal to people (my friends did the same for similar reasons). I just will not understand why when given the chance to continue to grow Signal decided to shoot themselves in the foot.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28109842

Re: Default disappearing messages

#137

Post by godelski »

londons_explore wrote: post #99
Ericson2314 wrote: post #22

I dunno, I think being able to hoard your own data shouldn't be demonized or valorized? Fine with whatever the default is, but I feel like the subtext here is that Signal thinks people's phones are going to be increasingly compromised so this will be a more necessary, and the "remember the passing acoustic conversation" is just a way to put a less depressing spin on that.

Disappearing messages by default could further weaken social protections. Police and authorities can have logs (either of everyone or high value targets) and those people won't have access to their own messages to defend themselves. It even means chat conversations can be entirely fabricated by one side, and the other has no way to refute it.

On the other hand, disappearing messages by default could strengthen social protections.

Someone gets hit by a hack like Pegasas and it is only able to scrape a small history of messages.

At the end of the day this is going to be a per user decision. Security and privacy are different things. What's the correct privacy options for you is going to be different from another person, while we are likely to share the same optimal security strategy.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#138

Post by legrande »

somebodythere wrote: post #40
compsciphd wrote: post #35

as the app is open source, isn't it easy for someone to just create a fork that causes the messages to not disappear on the receiver end without the sender having any idea? I'd think a better idea would simply be to accept this as reality, and have a config entry or utility that lets you batch delete messages marked "ephemeral" (or better in this context, "unimportant").

You could do that. The point of the feature isn't to prevent that. The feature has two functions. The first is to decrease the severity of the consequences if a conversation partner's device falls into the wrong hands, say a government who wants to use chat messages as evidence, a corporate competitor who stole the phone, or just a friend who is rifling through your unlocked phone. The other purpose is to make it eas…

> Or take screenshots

Came here to say this but someone beat me to it. I imagine forging a screenshot to 'put words in someone's mouth' is hard to do though. You'd have to find a way of injecting words into the Signal app by messing with the code. You'd also have to use the correct font, make sure the metadata of the file is consistent, etc

Since there's no permalinks for a Signal message, you could forge anything you wanted, and you just have to get some dummy to believe the screenshot is an actual screenshot of a conversation. Treat screenshots of messenger apps with plenty of skepticism.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#139

Post by AnonHP »

Symbiote wrote: post #107
Rd6n6 wrote: post #3

The max timer is too short. 6 months would be a convenient value - enough time to reference the messages while they might be relevant, but also not floating around forever

The discussion for a longer timeframe is here [1]. It seems Moxie doesn't want this [2], and it's disappointing that he doesn't provide any explanation or justification. I'd like something like 3 months / 13 weeks, but 3, 6 and 12 months seem like good durations. [1] https://community.signalusers.org/t/longer-timeframe-more-op... [2] https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/pull/6814#issuec...

> It seems Moxie doesn't want this [2], and it's disappointing that he doesn't provide any explanation or justification.

That's sad to know. But we need to face the fact that Signal is not a community driven project. It has always been a moxie driven project. So it's not surprising that he would do (or not do) things that the rest of us don't understand or agree with.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#140

Post by el-salvador »

riedel wrote: post #97
leppr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't reckon Signal disappearing messages have much to do with "large-scale blanket surveillance of the whole population". This seems more about reducing potentially incriminating evidence in the absence of blanket surveillance.

The problem is that all personal data is potentially incriminating and harmful if not tightly controlled. I am not thinking about actually people/governments trying to do bad. It is a matter of chance and false positives, that plainly increase with the amount of data. There is cases when it is totally legitimate for law enforcement to seize all communication. It happened to me once and it does not feel good if all yo…

I've switched most of my group chats with friends to autodelete.

While I haven't had my devices seized, two acquaintances had their device seized for an investigation. They were just on the wrong place at the wrong time.

This meant that months and months of our chats were potentially read by a third party.

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