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The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

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Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#81
post #21

> I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages This is bad news. They're going to backtrack on this. The sooner they do it, the better for them politically. I understand the problems of setting a precedent. And there really is no getting around the fact that the hosts do have the final responsibility for screening travelers (and travelers for screening hosts). But rightly or wrongly, t…

As was pointed out before, it's not possible to get insurance for this - homeowner's insurance specifically disclaims damage from renters, and it's generally not legal to rent your premises like this unless you comply with all the hotel rules, so AirBnb can't take out insurance either. All they can do is self-insure, and if they start paying out, people will realize "Hey, I can get a new TV if I let my friend come an…

I don't see what they stand to lose if they take the same stance as homeowner insurers do— if you file a police report, they'll pretty much take your word for it.

In fact they have an even better guarantee, since they know (ideally...) exactly who the perpetrator was. They're not giving you the money to replace your stuff, they're lending it to you until they can recover it from the criminal. If the person who you claim did the damage claims they didn't, that's a problem they have with you, not with Airbnb.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#82

"I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track down the person who did this, but their help ends there." ... Fuck. That. I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost . If my business does this to someone I make it right . E…

> I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost.

Do you care about your company continuing to exist for more than six months?

If you ran AirBNB and paid out to this girl, you would probably be flooded with similar complaints and legal assaults.

You'd feel great about the several people you helped, but then you'd be looking for a new job.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#84
post #71

[deleted]

>I was wondering, why is the reaction to this incident so different than the tech community's response to all of the CraigsList incidents? (Which include theft, prostitution and even murder.)

CraigsList isn't a party in the transaction.

>Seems like as soon as you pay for a service, your expectation goes much much higher.

How it could be otherwise?

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#85

"I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track down the person who did this, but their help ends there." ... Fuck. That. I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost . If my business does this to someone I make it right . E…

Where do we draw the line on decency? * Guest trashes the place, takes off with host's camera, iPod, laptop, jewelry - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? * Guest scratches a hardwood floor that's pretty expensive to fix - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? Or just buy a rug to cover it? What if it's some Mongolian oak that's custom-ordered at $5000 per sq.ft.? * Guest overflows the toilet, causing some floor damage…

>Where do we draw the line on decency?

"If damage incurred through malice or gross negligence exceeds a reasonable proportion of the overall value of the establishment" where reasonable proportion might be defined as anything from 0.5% to 5%. The cool thing about legalese is how it can define a whole lot of undefinable things.

I am not a lawyer and never will be.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#86
post #77
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me think— Who says someone else has to insure Airbnb? Let's say they add an invisible $1 insurance fee to each booking, that goes into a fund to pay interim damages only when an actual crime is committed. Cases like this are so rare, and although the damage is horrific to one person the dollar amount is trivial on the scale Airbnb operates. Seems like a perfect case for a shared risk pool that actually works ra…

This opens Airbnb up to the risk of significant insurance fraud. Insurance companies have the infrastructure to deal with it, but Airbnb doesn't - and presumably doesn't want to build it.

If the premiums were juicy enough, an existing insurance company could cobrand with them to offer it. They can also limit their liability with a cap on the damages covered.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#87

Dream come true for a law firm. I bet they can make Airbnb pay up in court.

I doubt it. I'm sure Airbnb new exactly what risks there were in offering this service, and had lawyers very carefully craft terms of service that protect the company from damage done by renters.

A good lawyer would argue that this is a criminal case between the renter and the home owner, not a civil case between the home owner and Airbnb.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#88

"I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track down the person who did this, but their help ends there." ... Fuck. That. I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost . If my business does this to someone I make it right . E…

Give me a frigging break!

I don't care what the long-term implications are

Clearly you’re not a business person if you wouldn’t care what the long-term implications of your company’s response to this were. They have responsibilities to investors, employees, and other users—they’re (rightly) making a decision with those stakeholders in mind, not the woman who had her house ruined.

I don't care about cost

Again, clearly you’re not cut out to run a business if you don’t care about cost.

If my business does this to someone I make it right.

Airbnb didn’t do this to her. The people who did it to her did it to her. Airbnb provides a marketplace for these interactions to occur—nothing more. The users cannot abdicate their personal responsibility not to use the service carelessly. I mean, we’re talking about letting people into your home here.

Is a car manufacturer liable when a driver runs over a jaywalker because they were texting on their phone? No. Is the phone manufacturer liable? No. Should I be sued when I recommend my accountant to my friend and the accountant defrauds him? No. Should Craigslist be liable if precisely the same thing happened through Craigslist? No.

Anything less is simple villainy. This is a test of human decency.

Calling this villainy is one of the most hyperbolic statements I’ve heard in living memory. So is declaring, as if it were agreed upon fact, that Airbnb is evil if they don’t reimburse her.

If you are going to enjoy the rewards of your business, you have a moral obligation to ensure that you make things right when that business harms someone else.

If your company actually does something to somebody, then sure—but not when you’re company doesn’t. Airbnb didn’t do anything to her: she let a stranger into her house for a week without thinking about it! I’m not blaming the victim, I’m blaming the people who did it to her—but I’m certainly not blaming the middleman.

What happened to this girl sucks, but your post is overly emotional and absurd. It’s not Airbnb’s moral responsibility to do anything about this. They may choose to from a pragmatically-motivated customer relations, reputation, and corporate image standpoint—and sure, it would be an all-around charitable and nice thing to do—but I completely disagree with the claim that they have any moral responsibility to do so. Airbnb can do whatever they damn well please and what they believe is in the best interests of their business.

What I think is indecent is creating an artificially high and illogical holier-than-thou moral high ground divorced from the realities of running a $1B business that you then use to drum up a public crucifixion of a company that doesn’t live up to said standard.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do we draw the line on decency? * Guest trashes the place, takes off with host's camera, iPod, laptop, jewelry - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? * Guest scratches a hardwood floor that's pretty expensive to fix - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? Or just buy a rug to cover it? What if it's some Mongolian oak that's custom-ordered at $5000 per sq.ft.? * Guest overflows the toilet, causing some floor damage…

I'm willing to go on record as saying the line is drawn at a sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity. It's pretty simple. If the user can't pre-screen and validate the guest's identity before renting, the onus is on Airbnb to ensure that they will not destroy your home . Besides, that's the only way this company can work at scale. Without trust in the system, who will use it?

There are databases for convicted felons and molesters, but other than that, how exactly do you ensure someone is not a "sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity"?

Even if AirBnb had a way to check this guy out, it's quite possible he doesn't habitually destroy homes and steal people's identities.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#90
post #35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance probably requires a hotel reception-like presence (person on site, cam surveillance, security coverage, signed contracts, in-person ID validation and a way to prove who did what in case something bad happens). I can't imagine any insurance company signing up for insuring "rented your home while being away" guests at rates that would be considered affordable for the rental model, nor a lot of AirBnB audience…

If an insurance company won't write a policy for it, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

If everyone followed this rule, there would be very little innovation, none of it disruptive.
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