Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the old bit > Some researchers, for example, propose that while humans have a “true” understanding of numerical concepts, animals only appear to be discriminating between groups of objects based on quantity when they’re instead relying on less abstract characteristics, like size or color. It's a cognitive bias. People have this because their model of the world is ego centric with themselves as hero and Number…
I found the book Sapiens does wonders in shattering this objectively incorrect world view. We are alongside all other animals, with some skills much worse than other animals, some much better. Nothing more than that.
Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
121–130 of 165 posts
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
I once watched several seagulls peck at a closed clamshell container containing pizza crusts for over half an hour. Clearly there is an upper bound to their intelligence.
I watched a crack head at the park look for something on the ground for an hour once. Clearly there is an upper bound for human intelligence as well /s
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the old bit > Some researchers, for example, propose that while humans have a “true” understanding of numerical concepts, animals only appear to be discriminating between groups of objects based on quantity when they’re instead relying on less abstract characteristics, like size or color. It's a cognitive bias. People have this because their model of the world is ego centric with themselves as hero and Number…
I found the book Sapiens does wonders in shattering this objectively incorrect world view. We are alongside all other animals, with some skills much worse than other animals, some much better. Nothing more than that.
At the end of the day, no animal in history has a history even close to the one written up in Sapiens.
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#124The idea that zero was "invented" at a certain time by recent humans and not in use until then has always seemed absolutely absurd to me. I will admit I haven't read deeply into it, but there's just no way people didn't have a concept for "none of a thing" until a couple millennia ago. One of the justifications used for this reasoning is "You don't go to the market and buy 0 fish". But all that tells us is: There's n…
On the one hand, it means there's none of a thing in there. Most animals understand this. There is zero food here. There are zero predators on that island. Pretty sure crows have this one down pat.
Taking it one step further, you have zero as a number. Zero which is on equal footing as numbers like one or seven-- it is a number that you can perform arithmetic on or with. You can multiple by zero, you can add by zero, you can divide by -- wait, you can't divide by zero! The Greeks understood this. But lots of people say the Greek's "didn't have/didn't invent zero" because they used the word "nothing" instead of its own word. But Aristotle did say "nothing and nothing, added together, make nothing" and "there is no ratio of nothing to a number".
Crows probably don't understand that you cannot divide by zero. Maybe you could teach a crow that if two crows got ten total nuts, each crow would get five nuts, and so on. If you told that crow to split ten nuts between no crows, and ask the crow how many nuts each crow would get, the crow might tell you ten nuts, but it's not going to tell you that that operation is undefined.
Then there's the use of zero as a digit in a place-value system, like the one we use, as opposed to Roman numerals or Chinese numerals or so forth. Before there was a symbol for zero, you couldn't write one hundred and four as 104, it would just be 14 which was ambiguous. So when the Indians "invented zero" in the 7th century or whatever, it wasn't zero that they were inventing, it was the place-value system we use today to conduct our daily lives with, which is a shitload better than Roman numerals or trying to do arithmetic with a straightedge and compass or whatever.
There are a lot of people who claim that, for instance, the Maya were more mathematically advanced than the ancient Greeks, because the Maya had a symbol for zero (which looks sorta like a French baguette and an American football had a baby) and the Greeks didn't. While the Mayan way of writing down a number was much better than the Greek method, we don't have any evidence that the Mayans had much in the way of math beyond counting and extrapolating. The Mayans primary method of calculating is by drawing out tables: they knew the cycle of Venus is (roughly) 585 days, they knew the cycle of Mercury was 117 days, so you'd get a table with thousands of entries counting up the cycles. The Dresden codex has a table with 2340 entries, with 585 entries for Venus repeated 4 times and 117 entries for Mercury repeated 20 times. With a place-value system that used zeroes for zero digits. Which... ok, the place-value system was more advanced than the Greeks, but the Greeks would have done that same 'calculation' with a lot less tedium.
Then you have zero as in the additive identity, which opens whole new worlds of mathematics to you. Now you can start talking about things like rings, fields, and groups, and can have all sorts of fun. Pretty sure crows haven't sat down and discusses abelian vs non-abelian groups, but I wouldn't put it past them.
So anyway, any time someone starts talking about inventing or understanding the concept of zero but do not, themselves, display an understanding the concept of zero, (by explaining what it means in that context) it's generally a good time to stop listening.
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do we know this isn't another dead fish result?[1] I'm not trying to be dismissive, it's a real question that needs to be asked for any brain scan. [1] https://www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/
That’s quite a funny application of noise thresholds. I wonder how much fMRI machines have improved since?
IIRC the dead fish result had more to do with software than hardware though. My understanding is that the best of the best labs are careful with the analysis techniques applied, and they wouldn't have even made the dead fish mistake back then.
The commonly used analysis tools are continually improved, so improvements may have propagated to the median fMRI group, but to be honest I still start out skeptical of most fMRI papers unless they're from a group I have prior reason to trust (or they include other data types besides just scans). Too many groups just apply the popular pipelines without an understanding of what they are doing, leading to misuse of tools.
I'm tangential to the fMRI field though, so take with a grain of salt.
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the old bit > Some researchers, for example, propose that while humans have a “true” understanding of numerical concepts, animals only appear to be discriminating between groups of objects based on quantity when they’re instead relying on less abstract characteristics, like size or color. It's a cognitive bias. People have this because their model of the world is ego centric with themselves as hero and Number…
I found the book Sapiens does wonders in shattering this objectively incorrect world view. We are alongside all other animals, with some skills much worse than other animals, some much better. Nothing more than that.
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#127This is the new bit, if you've already read about the basics of animal counting: > The crows mixed up a blank screen more often with images of a single dot than they did with images of two, three or four dots. Recordings of the crows’ brain activity during these tasks revealed that neurons in a region of their brain called the pallium represent zero as a quantity alongside other numerosities, just as is found in the…
I agree. I have read it all to really learn not that much (animal cognition is a pet peeve of mine) until this paragraph. I don't know anymore if we should salute the efforts of the author to contextualize the news, to the detriment of the news itself, or I'd we should blame them for lengthening artificially the article... Probably a bit of both, as always. That being said, thanks for the summary of the article, grea…
Blaming people is discouraging, and divides communities. Criticise the article, not the author, and thank the author for what they got right (a good topic for discussion) so they'll create more in future.
We can also increase trust in the community using links. Mentioning names in a good way is particularly helpful, like academic citations.
Thank you for finishing with the "great tl;dr", xcambar, you're asking the right questions :)
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#128This is the new bit, if you've already read about the basics of animal counting: > The crows mixed up a blank screen more often with images of a single dot than they did with images of two, three or four dots. Recordings of the crows’ brain activity during these tasks revealed that neurons in a region of their brain called the pallium represent zero as a quantity alongside other numerosities, just as is found in the…
How do we know this isn't another dead fish result?[1] I'm not trying to be dismissive, it's a real question that needs to be asked for any brain scan. [1] https://www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/
That said, I don't find the interpretation of the results very convincing. I'm going only on the Quanta article, perhaps the original research tells a more compelling story. But with the details provided so far I don't see how the physiology can rule out the idea that crows have a concept of "none" but don't consider "none" as a potential number like "two".
Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero
#129Is it even possible to actually “count” without using some form of language in your head?