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Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

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Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#81

Post by _-david-_ »

cratermoon wrote: post #52
Minor49er wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Genesis story is Jewish, and predates Christianity by at least five if not ten centuries. And most importantly, early Christians were Jews first. Just thought this contradiction was amusing.

How so? Jesus and the apostles, or any historical figures which they inspired, didn't think of themselves as "Christian", nor did they even imagine they were creating a new religion. They were Jews who didn't toe the Second Temple Judaism line.

According to the Bible, Christians started using the word Christian to describe themselves while the Apostles were alive (Acts 11:26). Prior to this they generally would refer to themselves as followers of The Way. The idea that they didn't think of themselves as Christian is incorrect.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#82

Post by cratermoon »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #77
colechristensen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re talking about a late thirteenth century fresco in France, not Roman art by protochristians in the first few centuries CE. As christianity spread or was forced across europe, there was plenty of mixing religions. But this whole thing is a pretty big stretch, you can’t tell if it’s a tree or a mushroom then maybe it’s just the artist wasn’t the greatest and trying to shoehorn psychedelics into it isn’t at all a…

> maybe it’s just the artist wasn’t the greatest This seems likely, especially given that Eve's thighs are larger than her torso in the painting.

thicc

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#83

Post by _-david-_ »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #33
iammisc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catholicism has no concept of the elect, at least not in the way you describe it.

Of course they do: the priesthood. The Vatican itself restricts access to its own archives.

Non-priests view the archives frequently and there is a slow process of digitizing them now. It just so happens that the Vatican has some of the oldest documents still in existence and don't want them damaged by people or light.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#84

Post by Talanes »

iammisc wrote: post #44
Talanes wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also comes down to a matter of linguistics. English uniquely changed the name of the holiday to match up with local celebrations. If you're not thinking to hard about it, it's very easy to go from "Easter is named after a forgotten pagan goddess" to "The entire Easter tradition is stolen from old pagan rituals."

That's right. In most of the world, easter is referred to as some derivative of 'Paschal', which is the adjectival form of Easter in English. For example, French: Paques Spanish: Pascua Romanian: Pasti Russian: пасха (Paskha) Chinese: fùhuójié (resurrection festival) Danish: paske Only the german languages adopted a Germanic goddess name due to the coincidental timing.

>Only the german languages adopted a Germanic goddess name due to the coincidental timing.

And not even one anyone actually remembered, just one whose name was still around to denote that time of year.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#85

Post by PhasmaFelis »

colechristensen wrote: post #18
cratermoon wrote: post #10

There are several problems with this article. To start with, it mixes up the Tree of Life[1] and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil[2]. Second, the Genesis story is Jewish, and predates Christianity by at least five if not ten centuries. And most importantly, early Christians were Jews first. Post-Pauline times, pagan or Gentiles in the Roman empire did join the growing movement that was soon to be called Christi…

They’re talking about a late thirteenth century fresco in France, not Roman art by protochristians in the first few centuries CE. As christianity spread or was forced across europe, there was plenty of mixing religions. But this whole thing is a pretty big stretch, you can’t tell if it’s a tree or a mushroom then maybe it’s just the artist wasn’t the greatest and trying to shoehorn psychedelics into it isn’t at all a…

Yeah, the guy drew Eve with no breasts and what appear to be gills running up to her collarbone. I don't think we can safely assume that anything in the image is an accurate representation of a real-world object.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#86

Post by Minor49er »

pulse7 wrote: post #54
Minor49er wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Genesis story is Jewish, and predates Christianity by at least five if not ten centuries. And most importantly, early Christians were Jews first. Just thought this contradiction was amusing.

There is no contradiction here: Jews (descendants of Judah, son of Jacob=Israel) were living at least 15 centuries before Jesus Christ. Jesus was also a Jew and his first followers were also Jews, later non-Jews (=pegans) joined the "movement"...

Many Christian denominations believe that they are the "true Jews" because they have followed Jesus who was fulfilling scriptural prophecy. Since the divergence, Christians have adopted the books of the New Testament as part of their sacred scripture. Meanwhile, Jews (that is, modern Jews, not the Judeans that have been translated as "Jews") have adopted the books of the Talmud. Saying that one is older than the other is like saying that homo sapiens are homininae that are older than gorillas because the names are similar when that's simply where both began.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#87

Post by Minor49er »

cratermoon wrote: post #52
Minor49er wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Genesis story is Jewish, and predates Christianity by at least five if not ten centuries. And most importantly, early Christians were Jews first. Just thought this contradiction was amusing.

How so? Jesus and the apostles, or any historical figures which they inspired, didn't think of themselves as "Christian", nor did they even imagine they were creating a new religion. They were Jews who didn't toe the Second Temple Judaism line.

I posted in a sibling response, but basically, you are correct. Jesus and the apostles were not out to create "Christianity". They believe that they were Jews who were following the messiah outlined by the Jewish scriptures. I just found that the notion "X predates this group, but also this group was that same group anyways" was funny, despite being a bit pedantic.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#88

Post by anthk »

andrewtbham wrote: post #43

It's possible that manna from heaven and the bread at communion are mushrooms. that many of the experiences seem to by psychadelic: the burning bush, the transfiguration, etc. And that it was all gotten rid of during the black death. https://psychedelictimes.com/the-secret-psychedelic-mushroom...

On communion, every baker knew that badly preserved cereal could grow up hallucinogenous funghi.

https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1037.htm

Another one: guess why Jesus rites on birth and resurrection are highly related in time to Winter and Spring which is seeding time and later harvesting time.

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#89

Post by anthk »

mbesto wrote: post #48

If you're curious about the ties between religion, shamanism and psychedelics theres a great book by Terrence McKenna on this subject called Food of the Gods: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0553371304?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_...

https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1037.htm

Re: Does this medieval fresco show a hallucinogenic mushroom in the Garden of Eden?

#90

Post by amanaplanacanal »

Natsu wrote: post #65
anigbrowl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not even replying to the same person. I think you're being a little over-literal here.

The 'elect' as a Christian concept is a bit different from ordinary uses of the word. In context, the concept from Calvinism seemed to be under discussion until someone came into the discussion using 'elect' in the normal meaning. So I think it's important to keep track of which definition of 'elect' is in use here or you'll just be talking past each other without realizing that you're not talking about the same conc…

I mentioned elect in the context of classical times and the Old Testament. I wasn’t referring to whatever Christians consider the elect, but a more general term describing insiders with the secret teachings that aren’t to be mentioned in front of the masses because they might be led astray. This was certainly not an unknown idea throughout the Greek speaking philosophical world, including the early Christian church. There are no doubt Christians today who still adhere to such an idea.

I don’t want to be misunderstood here: I think the mushroom idea is hogwash.

Also it appears that I may have touched a nerve here, I certainly wasn’t intending to call anybody’s religion into question.

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