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Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

quantamagazine.org

111–120 of 165 posts

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#111
post #110

This is the new bit, if you've already read about the basics of animal counting: > The crows mixed up a blank screen more often with images of a single dot than they did with images of two, three or four dots. Recordings of the crows’ brain activity during these tasks revealed that neurons in a region of their brain called the pallium represent zero as a quantity alongside other numerosities, just as is found in the…

How do we know this isn't another dead fish result?[1] I'm not trying to be dismissive, it's a real question that needs to be asked for any brain scan. [1] https://www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/

That’s quite a funny application of noise thresholds. I wonder how much fMRI machines have improved since?

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#112

This is the new bit, if you've already read about the basics of animal counting: > The crows mixed up a blank screen more often with images of a single dot than they did with images of two, three or four dots. Recordings of the crows’ brain activity during these tasks revealed that neurons in a region of their brain called the pallium represent zero as a quantity alongside other numerosities, just as is found in the…

I agree. I have read it all to really learn not that much (animal cognition is a pet peeve of mine) until this paragraph. I don't know anymore if we should salute the efforts of the author to contextualize the news, to the detriment of the news itself, or I'd we should blame them for lengthening artificially the article... Probably a bit of both, as always. That being said, thanks for the summary of the article, grea…

Why do you hate animal cognition ?

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#113
post #39
post #20

The more I learn about animal intelligence, the more I suspect we grossly underestimate it. I recently saw a video of a seagull that entered a grocery store through the automatic door, picked up a (non-transparent) bag of potato chips (or something similar), walked out again, opened the bag and ate the chips. Think about it for a moment, the bird has to understand (to a degree) how an automatic door works, and that t…

I once watched several seagulls peck at a closed clamshell container containing pizza crusts for over half an hour. Clearly there is an upper bound to their intelligence.

I watched a crack head at the park look for something on the ground for an hour once. Clearly there is an upper bound for human intelligence as well /s

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#114
post #73
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once watched several seagulls peck at a closed clamshell container containing pizza crusts for over half an hour. Clearly there is an upper bound to their intelligence.

I watched a lot of people vote for Donald Trump -- there's clearly also an upper bound to human intelligence.

While this appears to be made in both jest and political commentary, I agree that there are bounds to human intelligence.

While we as a species have accomplished a lot, those accomplishments seem to be sparked/possible by the few of us who stop and figure things out or notice something interesting. It seems that most of us take most of the knowledge we have for granted; Even the most essential pieces of our knowledge are passed down, not figured out, by the vast majority of us.

Examples: fire, sanitary practices, what to eat (and what not to eat), language (and writing)

How I justify these examples:

It took a long time (many generations) to harness fire and still more to understand it well enough to use it as we do today. We are still pushing the limits of our understanding of fire (combustion) in microgravity to better understand how it works on Earth.

Sanitary practices are different in different cultures despite all of us having the same basic plumbing. Sure, we can all "poo in a hole" but even in modern times, we've had to re-learn to not make that hole too close to our water supply.

Food: There is no way of knowing what mushrooms will kill you without someone previously taking a hit for the tribe.

Language seems pretty self-explanatory but... there are languages we no longer know and are largely unable to decipher because we have stopped passing them down. Knowledge encoded in those languages may be lost until rediscovered in a new language.

I think the biggest bound to our perceived intelligence is the ability to pass it down. When viewed in the scope of animal intelligence, we often think animals that have learned from other animals are acting more intelligently than those that haven't. The problem is, both groups may be equally intelligent, one group is just more highly trained.

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#116

This is the new bit, if you've already read about the basics of animal counting: > The crows mixed up a blank screen more often with images of a single dot than they did with images of two, three or four dots. Recordings of the crows’ brain activity during these tasks revealed that neurons in a region of their brain called the pallium represent zero as a quantity alongside other numerosities, just as is found in the…

This is the old bit

> Some researchers, for example, propose that while humans have a “true” understanding of numerical concepts, animals only appear to be discriminating between groups of objects based on quantity when they’re instead relying on less abstract characteristics, like size or color.

It's a cognitive bias. People have this because their model of the world is ego centric with themselves as hero and Number 1, and animals far below.

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#117
post #39
post #20

The more I learn about animal intelligence, the more I suspect we grossly underestimate it. I recently saw a video of a seagull that entered a grocery store through the automatic door, picked up a (non-transparent) bag of potato chips (or something similar), walked out again, opened the bag and ate the chips. Think about it for a moment, the bird has to understand (to a degree) how an automatic door works, and that t…

I once watched several seagulls peck at a closed clamshell container containing pizza crusts for over half an hour. Clearly there is an upper bound to their intelligence.

The differences in intelligence between species is exaggerated

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2013/04/john-paulson-loses-1...

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#118

This is the new bit, if you've already read about the basics of animal counting: > The crows mixed up a blank screen more often with images of a single dot than they did with images of two, three or four dots. Recordings of the crows’ brain activity during these tasks revealed that neurons in a region of their brain called the pallium represent zero as a quantity alongside other numerosities, just as is found in the…

This is the old bit > Some researchers, for example, propose that while humans have a “true” understanding of numerical concepts, animals only appear to be discriminating between groups of objects based on quantity when they’re instead relying on less abstract characteristics, like size or color. It's a cognitive bias. People have this because their model of the world is ego centric with themselves as hero and Number…

I found the book Sapiens does wonders in shattering this objectively incorrect world view.

We are alongside all other animals, with some skills much worse than other animals, some much better. Nothing more than that.

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there’s that famous computer vision story of a model that was supposed to detect tanks in images but actually just detected whether or not it was sunny (all the tank pictures in the training set were sunny, non tanks overcast). Children will make similar classification errors when learning too. None of this means that it’s not possible they can also learn counting, but just that scientists need to be clever about…

The tank story is urban legend. https://www.gwern.net/Tanks

Thanks - good to know the truth around that specific story.

The example and class of failure (even if it didn't actually occur in this specific case) is still the point I was trying to make. Those types of failures can happen - even if the specifics of the tank example are urban legend.

Re: Crows have been shown to understand the concept of zero

#120
post #32

The idea that zero was "invented" at a certain time by recent humans and not in use until then has always seemed absolutely absurd to me. I will admit I haven't read deeply into it, but there's just no way people didn't have a concept for "none of a thing" until a couple millennia ago. One of the justifications used for this reasoning is "You don't go to the market and buy 0 fish". But all that tells us is: There's n…

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