American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#231

Post by andi999 » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:27 PM UTC

dmurray wrote: post #223

jusssi wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following the procedure taught in class (and I'm quite sure they didn't teach "make a guess") is safer. When you show the correct procedure and fumble say, and addition, near the end, you'll still get almost full points. If you go off-road and get the wrong answer, it's up to how much the teacher likes you.

This doesn't line up with all the other problems, which reward having some insight as well as the concrete algebra/arithmetic skills to finish it out. If anything, your approach sounds more like what's expected in American schools: either you have been taught a foolproof way to solve problems matching Pattern X, or you stare slack jawed at the question paper thinking "I must have been absent the day they covered this…

Ok, only following procedure I also don't like..

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#232

Post by markus_zhang » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:28 PM UTC

sega_sai wrote: post #210

It's a weird article. I think this idea of 'Russian math' is very nebulous, and is probably used as marketing tool nowadays by some schools abroad. I have graduated from one of the top physics/maths high schools in Russia, and yes we had great math education there, but that was an outlier. Outside a handful of schools the math education is pretty dismal. And even in the good math schools there are different ways of t…

In China we used to have those after-hour classes too. Nowadays they charge a lot of money and the material declines in quality as well. Back then they hired some professors from the top universities to do the teaching of after-hour classes and nowadays who knows those guys are...

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#233

Post by jusssi » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:33 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #215

jusssi wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 5a looks dodgy (probably just trying out numbers) You can find the 4 zeros of the left side by eyeball, and use that to construct the rest of the equation group you need. It's expected you've seen and solved this type of problem before taking the test. Not that many kids can come up with a working solution strategy on the fly.

When you have the 4 zeros how do you construct solutions?

You'd have to ask the kids who just took that class. I'm too old to remember ;-)

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#234

Post by markus_zhang » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:34 PM UTC

ymolodtsov wrote: post #122

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon governor Kate Brown has signed a law that allows students to graduate without proving they can read, write or do math. The law had overwhelming Democrat support & is justified on the basis that it will benefit non-white students. https://thepostmillennial.com/oregon-governor-signs-new-law-...

Not sure how exactly the lack of these skills could benefit anyone. I understand that the lack of a school diploma is a huge drag in life and that can primarily affect people from disadvantaged backgrounds, but shouldn't they focus on improving the way they teach kids instead?

As Sir Humphrey said, education policies are not for children and parents, but for teachers.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#235

Post by markus_zhang » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

leto_ii wrote: post #44

ardit33 wrote: post #7

My sister sent my niece to one, as even her 'private' middle school in Newton, MA, was just not strong enough. She did sign up my niece in every summer class she could, without overloading her. It was always my nieces' choice, and half the time she choose arts and half science. Now, my niece is able to do college entry level data science classes (she is about to become a Junior in HighSchool), and she actually likes…

My experience in my home country of Romania was similar to yours, however my conclusions couldn't be more different. > American schools are too soft on science in general. [...]The Albanian school was brutal in teaching science How on earth is brutality in teaching a good idea? What was the effect of this approach on the average Albanian or Romanian student? Sure it worked fine for a few of us, but overall the result…

I don't think it's really "brutal" but "challenging". So if the kid has no interest in Math he/she would regard that as brutal and for others who do have interest it's just challenging and maybe even fun. Just like people who like to crack Leetcode problems, those are challenging and fun.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#236

Post by markus_zhang » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #21

picture wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also out of curiosity, from where do you draw the connection that the lackluster schooling is caused by "extreme progressive liberals"? Maybe I'm just not well versed enough in politics but it appears to jump straight to that conclusion following your personal experience.

Recent trend to dumb down math and calling 'racist'. Unfortunately it will be immigrants (like I was), that will suffer the most. Most immigrants are poor, and don't have the connections and money to go to private tutoring route and rely heavily on public education. Virginia moving to eliminate all accelerated math courses before 11th grade as part of equity-focused plan https://forums.somd.com/threads/virginia-dumbi…

At least you can homeschool your kids. It takes a lot of effort but I don't think money is a big issue here unless of course you are struggling with basic income then it's best to focus on income first.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#237

Post by damagednoob » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

markus_zhang wrote: post #220

farmerstan wrote: post #47

This is the video by the daughter of the founder of the Russian School of Math. We sent our son there over the summer, he enjoyed it and all the kids were pretty advanced in the class. California seems to want to hold everyone back in the name of equity. But that will force more people into the private school system, which is exactly what we did. I don’t trust the California government to have my children’s best inte…

Essentially large part of education falls onto the shoulder of parents, which is natural. I'm even preparing to sharpen up my Math/Physics/Electronics skills for the future. Time to re-learn those things that I mostly forgot!

> Essentially large part of education falls onto the shoulder of parents, which is natural.

Have to disagree. A parent can't be simultaneously up to speed on Math, English, a 2nd language, Biology, Science, History or any of the other subjects that a child will learn in school

School is meant to teach, parents are meant to socialise. Unfortunately that seems to have been swapped around somewhere along the line.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#238

Post by caddemon » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

lvl100 wrote: post #211

This notion that “American” math and sciences lag behind the world is one of the greatest lies ever told in my lifetime. And for the record, there is no “Russian” math or “Chinese” math. Mathematics is mathematics. Where the US approach differs is that they are not requiring high level of math on general public. However, if you are gifted and/or motivated, you have access to unparalleled resources.

The US has resources available if you know where to look, but children obviously don't, so it comes down to luck with parents (or in rarer cases a very good teacher). Perhaps the top Olympiad level types get "recruited". But speaking from experience, kids that are in the high 90 percentiles who enjoy math at a young age frequently end up bored in a typical classroom and eventually disillusioned with the subject - not provided additional resources.

By high school one can start seeking out their own resources, but motivation to do math specifically is harder to find when you've considered it a boring subject for 5+ years. And there is definitely an advantage to being introduced certain concepts at an elementary school age.

So the US approach absolutely differs in how it handles early math education for the vast majority of students, not just for the average student. I wish I learned math in the Russian style as a child, and moreover I think US math has this problem moreso than even other subjects here. Humanities classes generally have less mindless repetition and early childhood teachers could easily recommend advanced books in a way they really couldn't for math.

In many schools the same teacher will teach every subject until you hit middle school! So it is no surprise they don't have resources to give to advanced students, as a lot of them dread math themselves.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#239

Post by inglor_cz » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #137

skzv wrote: post #121

When I started high school in Canada, my math grades were pretty bad. Probably in the 60%s (a C letter grade). I remember staring at a quadratic equation, struggling to understand why those 3 terms drew a curve. I had no intuition for it. The summer before 11th grade, my father decided he had enough. It was time to learn math, Soviet style. He sat me down for a few hours each morning with problems from 6th and 7th gr…

What's happened in Canada, is that curriculum is designed to teach to the weakest student in a subject. This is thought of as being fair, of helping, for of course everyone is intellectually equal. Thus, those who can accel, are denied their future, for those which will leave high school, and never touch (for example) advanced math again. Equality comes from recognising our differences, and enabling best outcomes for…

It is kinda ironic that the former Soviet Bloc, whose central ideology was built around equality, had a very streamed education system concentrated on recognizing talented individuals early, while the Anglosphere, usually renowned for its ceaseless competition, emphasizes equality at the cost of excellence now.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#240

Post by II2II » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 12:51 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #137

skzv wrote: post #121

When I started high school in Canada, my math grades were pretty bad. Probably in the 60%s (a C letter grade). I remember staring at a quadratic equation, struggling to understand why those 3 terms drew a curve. I had no intuition for it. The summer before 11th grade, my father decided he had enough. It was time to learn math, Soviet style. He sat me down for a few hours each morning with problems from 6th and 7th gr…

What's happened in Canada, is that curriculum is designed to teach to the weakest student in a subject. This is thought of as being fair, of helping, for of course everyone is intellectually equal. Thus, those who can accel, are denied their future, for those which will leave high school, and never touch (for example) advanced math again. Equality comes from recognising our differences, and enabling best outcomes for…

> What's happened in Canada, is that curriculum is designed to teach to the weakest student in a subject.

No, the curriculum is not watered down to meet the needs of the weakest students. Canada tends to align its curriculum to that of other western nations. On the other hand, when you're talking about math there is a bit of an issue where the background of teachers is mixed at the elementary level and students are not guaranteed to have a true specialist teacher until grade 10. That isn't to say that specialist teachers are the best teachers, but it is a bit disconcerting when a teachers college offers classes for math-phobic elementary teacher candidates (particularly since those grade levels seem to be where many children develop their attitudes towards math). It is also worth noting that the quality of teachers varies based upon region and schools, largely because teachers have a lot of choice as to where they teach.