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Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

theguardian.com

431–440 of 441 posts

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not wrong. It has been my position from the start that we should advocate for minimizing human impact on the climate and invest in surviving the change that those who will not heed that advice will create. I can recommend the book "Apocalypse Never" by Michael Shellenberger. While I don't agree with all of his points he does call out some of the factors that drive unnecessary hype. Perhaps one of the biggest…

> That aside, some of the early research in climate change actually pointed out that the result of this climate instability may in fact be another glacial period rather than a period of extremely high temperatures. Just as damaging to people and ecosystems but not what a lot of people think about when they think "climate change." I'm afraid you are the victim of another popular climate denial myth that continues to s…

I appreciate where you are coming from, but in my case I believe you to be mistaken. The observation made by the IPCC and the general consensus of climate scientists is that the mechanism of climate change is a change in the balance of energy based on Earth's ability to radiate heat vs it's heat gain from internal and external sources. Nominally heat that would be radiated into space is 'trapped' because it is reflected back to the planet by greenhouse gases. The shift in greenhouse gases means that less heat is radiated so the average heat component rises.

But the key here is that in this discussion 'heat' here is a measure of energy not specifically temperature.

Climate change is the response of the current system when it has more latent energy versus without that latent energy. Those changes are varied, from changing thermoclines in the ocean to the changing ice levels at the poles.

A graduate student at Berkeley observed that the reason we talk about "glacial" cycles is because they leave durable marks in the landscape. But what sort of markers would a "hot cycle" leave? That was the fundamental question he was trying to answer. I believe his advisor had done his PhD on glacial cycles and there was a question of why weren't we in one given the periodicity of the geologic record.

So he was exploring the question of whether or not a "hot cycle" would somehow lead to a "cold cycle". The working hypothesis was was investigating cloud formation. I'm presuming that you've read the IPCC report and a number of papers on the models that are used so that you are familiar with the way in which they handle clouds. There are two kinds, clouds in the ionosphere and clouds in the troposphere. Their effect on surface temperature are exactly opposite.

From Chen Zhou in correspondence about his model work on climate, "It is worth noting that different cloud types have different climate radiative effects to the earth: high thin cirrus clouds warm the earth, while the marine boundary low clouds cool the earth significantly. To set a 90% cloud cover, you have to determine whether cirrus clouds or low clouds should be added: if you add cirrus clouds, the earth will warm significantly; if you add low clouds, the earth will cool."

And of course there were a number of papers that discussed "nuclear winter" which was a disruption of weather patterns by the particulates in the air from a general nuclear exchange. And papers that studied the weather effects of volcanic eruptions like Pinatubo in 1991.

So what this grad student was looking at was this; When you increase the mean temperature of the atmosphere, the ability for the air to hold moisture increases. When you increase the mean temperature of the oceans, evaporation rates increase. So more energy in the air means more moisture. There was another paper that discussed 'wet bulb' temperatures and how those would become more common as more moisture was being held in the air as well.

So what does that moisture do? Well it eventually condenses out of the air, first into clouds and then into precipitation. Because the difference in temperature between the surface and the ionosphere is greater, when rapid temperature changes occur (as they do when water condenses out of the air) you get huge upwellings. Basically much stronger storms, stronger tornadoes, and stronger hurricanes Etc. So what if there is enough heat in the air so that it keeps the moisture from condensing into drops and stays as clouds? Well if they appear at low altitude the surface gets really cold, if they appear at high altitude the surface gets hotter. Which we get isn't in the models because nobody knows yet how that will play out.

What that meant is that it is worth considering the effect of tropospheric clouds. If things got really cold, it could blanket the northern latitudes with 100% of snow cover that did not melt all year round. The 'year without a summer' which occurred when Krakatoa erupted is believed (but not proven) to have been this sort of effect. Snow cover increases the planets albedo and that increases the radiation of heat into space. If the northern lattitudes were covered in cloud and snow 365 days of the year you create a new model where water is evaporating in an over heated equatorial region flowing north and south and then contributing to the continuing cloud cover and precipitation. And THAT could lead to glaciation.

Is that going to happen? I don't think anyone knows. Can you tweak the current climate models and make it happen? Sure, just add a lot of low continuous cloud cover being resupplied with moisture from the equator.

But it is equally important to understand that this is climate change which is just as much human induced as baking in a dry desert. It isn't denying the science, it is looking at the science and the models and asking "Okay, given what we know what changes in the model cause what changes in the habitability of the planet?" And perhaps more importantly, how can we identify, as early as possible, how the model needs to incorporate what we're seeing in order to continue to help us understand what the future may hold.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#432
post #36

I often hear that as individuals we can't really be held responsible for climate change and that instead we should look to our government to impose laws that restrict carbon output. This made me curious: what is the "fair" amount of carbon dioxide that the average individual can emit? According to this article[1][2] published in Nature it looks like the answer is 1.61 metric tons of CO2/year. That strikes me as close…

I do everything you've said, essentially 'by accident'. I don't have a car, don't fly, and don't live in a remote area. It's basically a function of how good the infrastructure is. If you live in a dense city, with good cycle lanes, and decent train connections, you don't really need a car. Not flying is also enabled by this. Everybody could definitely live like this. I would actually prefer it - cars degrade my cycl…

I enjoy my car. I enjoy maintaining a building, going hiking, exploring the countryside, etc. The left wing politics, density, and “urbanness” of big cities is not for me. I much prefer the open road, nature, etc. I want to retire to 10 acres of land.

All of that, I can’t do without a car. I don’t think everyone could live like you, since it’s just not the majority societal preference. People never evolved to live in concrete jungles.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#433
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lockdowns prove your point. People hate living like that. And it also shows behavioral change is pointless. In 2020 we had barely any airplane traffic. Factories all over the world closed, China was basically closed for business for two months. No traffic since everyone stayed at home. Less frivolous consumption, world gdp contracted almost 5 % = degrowth. Result for this horrible way of living? A measly 7 % lowe…

What about high resolution satellite pollution maps and airstrikes? If the combustion engines or the refineries are not destroyed, they will be used. We could start slowly with only the dirtiest targets. Doing this now is less aggressive then what will happen after global crop failures.

Global crop failures is pretty far fetched. Even the IPCC lowers the projections every year. Not a denier in the least, but we have over-estimated the impact in a huge way.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bipartisan federal mandates to scale nuclear energy is the only real solution to this problem" Where to start? Bipartisan implies 'America', which is not 'the world'. Scaling up nuclear energy implies even more energy consumption rather than to do the obvious: shut down coal and gas fired plants and cap the per capita energy budget to something reasonable. Finally, nuclear instead of solar/wind is going to push yet…

The easiest path to reducing our carbon emissions is to electrify everything (notably: transportation and heating) and clean up the power grid. That is going to require doubling the size of the electrical grid in the next 20 years. There's a lot of wind and solar that we're going to need to be bringing online in the next couple of decades!

and nuclear hopefully if we have any chance at all.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#435
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about high resolution satellite pollution maps and airstrikes? If the combustion engines or the refineries are not destroyed, they will be used. We could start slowly with only the dirtiest targets. Doing this now is less aggressive then what will happen after global crop failures.

Global crop failures is pretty far fetched. Even the IPCC lowers the projections every year. Not a denier in the least, but we have over-estimated the impact in a huge way.

Im sure it wont be like a biblical plague, but the IPCC report that came out moments ago reiterated the 20 year to 1.5 C+ timeline. What matters is if a crop failure hits a nation with few friends and lots of nukes.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#436
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, redesign houses to not need nearly as much energy for heating and cooling, preferring natural heating via the sun and cooling via breeze. https://www.codylundin.com/codys_house.html

So you going to level down and rebuild entire cities? The building I live in in London was built in the mid 1800’s there are many others like it, Edwardian buildings aren’t much better not to mention the 50’s - 70’s council built blocks. Rebuilding buildings would also have a major carbon footprint not to mention cost.

money is a social construct. as soon as externalities are properly priced in, rebuilding will be cheap.

of course, this may never happen, since it'd be perceived by the establishment as political suicide - but they don't care, since they won't live long enough to witness the real suicide, which happens slowly, then all at once (when it's too late).

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#437
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iron age required a lot of wood.

The iron age was a long time ago, America had not been 'discovered' yet. Just two pictures to give you an idea of what has been lost: https://i.pinimg.com/550x/73/62/26/736226b8437e6ce9eb1bab42e... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7a4mTiIIAEsESF?format=jpg Multiply by a few million or so...

England used to be covered in dense forests of oak and other trees. It got almost completely deforested to build ships, among other things, and many of the areas never grew back. And that is what we know from detailed records. Many of the other changes there are no records. We don’t know full details of how extensive the megafauna was in the America’s before humans showed up, and how extensive and intentional was the hunting to extinction of them was. But it definitely happened and at huge scale for a long time.

We have evidence of wide scale changes made by humans long before written records existed. We also now have better records, so it’s easier to point to this one here done by this person, instead of only picking up what is visible in the fossil record (which is by it’s nature spotty and incomplete). But that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#438
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lockdowns prove your point. People hate living like that. And it also shows behavioral change is pointless. In 2020 we had barely any airplane traffic. Factories all over the world closed, China was basically closed for business for two months. No traffic since everyone stayed at home. Less frivolous consumption, world gdp contracted almost 5 % = degrowth. Result for this horrible way of living? A measly 7 % lowe…

What about high resolution satellite pollution maps and airstrikes? If the combustion engines or the refineries are not destroyed, they will be used. We could start slowly with only the dirtiest targets. Doing this now is less aggressive then what will happen after global crop failures.

My plan, from a European perspective, would be for the EU to build a couple hundred new nuclear plants in ten year. France built almost 60 reactors between the seventies and the eighties so I believe it’s certainly possible with more modern tech. So by 2030 the EU has tons of cheap energy.

Cheap energy makes the following possible:

- carbon capture for negative emissions

- desalination plants for drinking water from the sea during heat waves

- vertical farms so farming is decoupled from the weather

- electric planes, cars and boats

- production (and worldwide export) of green hydrogen for industrial use

- electrical heating instead of gas

Bonus:

- export of all the above technologies once EU mastered them

Ambitious? Very. Difficult? Yes. Doable? I think so. To me this sounds like a better solution than just trying to live like it’s 1940 again.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#439
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one except loonies see "You can't own a car, consume meat live anywhere but NYC and can't visit your family 5 states over" and are okay with it.

It doesn't matter who's okay with it. We have a choice between that, or an even less pleasant future. "Everything is awesome forever and we don't have to pay for it" is simply not one of the options.

> We have a choice between that, or an even less pleasant future. "Everything is awesome forever and we don't have to pay for it" is simply not one of the options.

When I see these flat assertions stated as foregone conclusions IRL by friends, I am prompted to ask, “What mitigations did you already implement against this conclusion?”

Revealed preferences demonstrate that overwhelmingly their assertions are far stronger than their mitigations. This is worrisome, as it shows even “true believers” are not taking commensurate action. The dislocation when it arrives, if as large a magnitude as claimed by IPCC, will be large even for that cohort.

Re: Observation-based early-warning signals for a collapse of the Gulf Stream

#440
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Global crop failures is pretty far fetched. Even the IPCC lowers the projections every year. Not a denier in the least, but we have over-estimated the impact in a huge way.

Im sure it wont be like a biblical plague, but the IPCC report that came out moments ago reiterated the 20 year to 1.5 C+ timeline. What matters is if a crop failure hits a nation with few friends and lots of nukes.

yup... nuclear... choose powerplants or weapons.
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