Live data from Hacker News

New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

npr.org

71–80 of 108 posts

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I argue that there is no such thing as formulating a hypothesis with no prior knowledge. We all have prior observations - hypotheses don't appear out of nowhere. In this respect I think GP's comment is admirable - it means teaching kids to use their experiences to formulate hypotheses, rather than forcing them to guess what you want them to formulate. (As an aside, I set out to comment here because I tire of the poin…

Formulating hypothesis first, even with little knowledge, is fine as long as the point is to invalidate them (basically you assume they are wrong and you’re fine spending time to prove it). It can help focus the data gathering phase, and you get two results: you can ignore your first hypothesis from now on, and you have further data to look at to formulate a decent hypothesis to expand on.

I agree in practice, but I think my point is to resist the dichotomy you are implying - that there is a "first hypothesis with little data"... vs ... the other ones..?

Isn't all our knowledge little knowledge - even if it seems like a lot? Wouldn't your advice apply equally as well to your most knowledgable topic?

The hard part isn't having knowledge, it's finding the hypothesis to show how your knowledge is little knowledge.

(Aside: I would love to hear the experiences you are forming your comment around! I'm sure there's a lot of interesting stuff there.)

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#72

I like how the article goes straight from this: > "We had no idea it was carnivorous," says Sean Graham, a botanist with the University of British Columbia. "This was not found in some exotic tropical location, but really right on our doorstep in Vancouver. You could literally walk out from Vancouver to this field site." to this: > Fewer than 1,000 plant species are carnivorous

I don't see the contradiction here?

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#74
post #72

I like how the article goes straight from this: > "We had no idea it was carnivorous," says Sean Graham, a botanist with the University of British Columbia. "This was not found in some exotic tropical location, but really right on our doorstep in Vancouver. You could literally walk out from Vancouver to this field site." to this: > Fewer than 1,000 plant species are carnivorous

I don't see the contradiction here?

How do they know there's fewer than 1000 if they barely noticed this one in front of them?

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#75

I like how the article goes straight from this: > "We had no idea it was carnivorous," says Sean Graham, a botanist with the University of British Columbia. "This was not found in some exotic tropical location, but really right on our doorstep in Vancouver. You could literally walk out from Vancouver to this field site." to this: > Fewer than 1,000 plant species are carnivorous

It seems strange not a mention of Darlingtonia californica (cobra lily), which also grows in the PNW albeit further south, but still not exotic and tropical.

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#76
post #33

Interesting that they started with data. Some of the most interesting discoveries I've made have started with me saying "that's weird" while looking at data. From the article: "Graham's team was doing an unrelated project on plant genetics and noticed that the western false asphodel had a genetic deletion that's sometimes seen in carnivorous plants. The researchers started to think about the fact that this flower gre…

I've long felt that the American school system's version of the scientific method (formulate hypothesis, run experiment, collect data, draw conclusions) is totally wrong and turns people off of science. The real procedure that we should teach kids is: collect data, ask questions about it, hypothesize some answers, and only then do a experiment to test your theory. The question formulation, based on observational evid…

General scientific education should be focused on methodological scrutiny and skepticism.

Our biggest issue in general scientific literacy is in people being convinced by quacks, charlatans, and well intentioned incompetence.

I'll use examples to demonstrate the fix.

Let's start with a recent bogus claim: "vaccine causes biomagnetism"

The experiment people use is to stick a smooth magnetic object on their oily skin.

Let's see if this works using what we teach people

"collect data, ask questions about it, hypothesize some answers"

Those could lead people to conclude the biomagnetism theory. That's the problem.

Instead, scientific literacy needs to focus on scrutiny. Karl Popper style testing, verifying, falsifying, validating.

For example: trying to stick magnets to unvaccinated people or similar shaped non-magnets to either group, see if they respond to a compass, or use a piece of paper in between the skin and the magnet, or some talc to smooth the skin (Randi debunked human magnetism with this).

But instead, there's hundreds of videos of the smooth object on oily skin test followed by the conclusion that vaccines cause biomagnetism.

A friend of mine showed me an hour compilation of countless people repeating the same flawed experiment as if a larger quantity was a valid refutation of my methodological objections.

I watched it regardless. The same flawed experiment repeated. A large stream of commenters claimed this is what convinced them.

Why? What we teach in school won't help us identify how this is wrong. In fact, they're taught that repeatability is good, and it is, but it doesn't necessarily support a hypothesis without sufficient variation. That's Robert Boyle, 1600s.

That's why instead students should poke holes (or support) in increasingly difficult arguments as they progress through school.

---

Second example, let's stick with vaccines because why not.

The hogwash: vaccines cause X.

The graphs are pretty convincing until you ask how things are defined, detected and the frequency of testing. Then everything is easily explained.

---

Third example: homoeopaths. They pass all the current methods taught in school.

That's the reason medicine invented double blind studies, to show homoeopaths were nonsense. (See the salt tests of 1835 https://www.jameslindlibrary.org/articles/inventing-the-rand...)

---

If students learned valid scrutiny and real scientific skepticism (not the sloppy hand waving nonsense that climate denying propagandists put out for instance) we'd have addressed climate change.

We'd have more effective social programs, better economic policy, not be wasteful as a society and not have half the people getting boondoggled by grifters and charlatans.

---

Let me belabor the point with one final example. The extremely dangerous advice given by Norman Vincent Peale in his famous 1952 text, "The power of positive thinking". He uses the word "scientific" 40 times and produces exactly zero science beyond unverifiable anecdotes.

Some of his uses of "scientific" include "scientific use of prayer" and "spiritually scientific principles (used 3 times)".

He makes remarkable and totally unsubstantiated claims throughout the book on things such as clairvoyance, ESP, and just straight up magic such as miraculous healings and physically impossible events.

His techniques have actually led to severe psychological illness and many suicides. Translated into 42 languages, sold 15 million copies.

People seem to be on board, just like they kill their children with homeopaths and themselves because they refuse to take a vaccine that will supposedly make them magnetic.

What they've been taught is science backs them up on every one of these beliefs.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a problem here.

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#78
post #65
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long felt that the American school system's version of the scientific method (formulate hypothesis, run experiment, collect data, draw conclusions) is totally wrong and turns people off of science. The real procedure that we should teach kids is: collect data, ask questions about it, hypothesize some answers, and only then do a experiment to test your theory. The question formulation, based on observational evid…

You are 100% correct. The boogeyman of confirmation bias paralyzes researchers.

The reality of not being able to publish negative results, and the publish or perish system of academia paralyzes researchers.

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#79
post #33

Interesting that they started with data. Some of the most interesting discoveries I've made have started with me saying "that's weird" while looking at data. From the article: "Graham's team was doing an unrelated project on plant genetics and noticed that the western false asphodel had a genetic deletion that's sometimes seen in carnivorous plants. The researchers started to think about the fact that this flower gre…

I've long felt that the American school system's version of the scientific method (formulate hypothesis, run experiment, collect data, draw conclusions) is totally wrong and turns people off of science. The real procedure that we should teach kids is: collect data, ask questions about it, hypothesize some answers, and only then do a experiment to test your theory. The question formulation, based on observational evid…

"The best geologist is he who has seen the most rocks." – Herbert Harold Read

Re: New carnivorous plant discovered in Pacific Northwest

#80
post #33

Interesting that they started with data. Some of the most interesting discoveries I've made have started with me saying "that's weird" while looking at data. From the article: "Graham's team was doing an unrelated project on plant genetics and noticed that the western false asphodel had a genetic deletion that's sometimes seen in carnivorous plants. The researchers started to think about the fact that this flower gre…

I've long felt that the American school system's version of the scientific method (formulate hypothesis, run experiment, collect data, draw conclusions) is totally wrong and turns people off of science. The real procedure that we should teach kids is: collect data, ask questions about it, hypothesize some answers, and only then do a experiment to test your theory. The question formulation, based on observational evid…

To me the observe step is implied. The scientific method is just meant to say it's okay to be wrong by prioritizing hypothesis over the conclusion. It allows you to be wrong and still fact-based in a world where people naturally don't want to be wrong.

It's okay to prefix this with an explicit "observe" step but the absence of that step in teaching doesn't mean we haven't already spent time observing.

Post reply on HN