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A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

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Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#191
post #186

My first thought about it was that it's awesome. The sad thing is that my second thought about it was that if somehow physics became political, this guy would be banned from Youtube for "physical misinformation" - after disagreeing with a renown expert in the field - and maybe we would never found out about it. But, apparently, there's a way for people to disagree about science - without any of the sides being evil o…

> Maybe we could learn something bigger from this?

It seems to me that Derek did several things right here:

- Choose a topic with which he has relevant experience

- Collect experimental data supporting his hypothesis

- Fairly address opposing viewpoints, in this case by providing a platform for a dissenting expert to present his evidence

Are there examples of similar videos being removed from youtube for misinformation?

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#193
Kusenko "conceded on a technicality — that the vehicle moves marginally faster than the wind temporarily," Cavallaro said. "I offered him another $10,000 bet, because his technicality is entirely wrong, but I know I won't be hearing from him."

Can anyone explain this line's reasoning?

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#194

> Any sailor worth their salt can tell you that a boat can travel faster than the wind by cutting zigzag patterns; that's called tacking. This is a pedantic point, but when you're cutting zigzag patterns downwind it's called jibing, not tacking. I guess there are high-performance boats that can go faster than the wind upwind, and that are so fast that they can perform downwind tacking (since apparent wind stays ahead…

But what about once you are going downwind faster than the wind, and thus experience an apparent headwind? I'm not a sailor, but I thought I'd seen people using the term "tacking downwind" to describe that.

Amusingly, it's still referred to as jibing[1], even though the apparent wind remains a headwind.

This is important because sailing has right-of-way rules that are written in terms of the true wind, not the apparent wind.

[1] or gybing if you're using British spelling.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what about once you are going downwind faster than the wind, and thus experience an apparent headwind? I'm not a sailor, but I thought I'd seen people using the term "tacking downwind" to describe that.

You will experience an apparent headwind when sailing on a broad reach faster than the wind, yes. But the jibe involves turning downwind (thus losing lift), as well as bringing the sails across (which will temporarily de-power them). It's been a while since I've been sailing, but I don't think most boats can maintain an apparent headwind through the entire maneuver, even if they are capable of faster-than-wind speed.…

The F50 sailing class used in SailGP can remain foiling during jibes in winds as light as 8 knots. That is, the boat always sees an apparent headwind during the entire downwind run.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#196
Part of the key to understanding the intuition of this is to recognize wind as a flux field that is an energy source and consider the limits of a sail that has infinite surface area and zero mass, it could slowly accelerate and propel a frictionless wheel close to the speed of light (this would be a fun calculation).

Starting from that point, you realize that by shrinking the surface area to human sizes of interest, you can utilize a larger surface area of wind energy to move mass to larger speeds with some limitations based on friction of the wheels and so forth which is a function of gravity and materials available, etc.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#198
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a professor have $10,000 sitting around for a bet like this?? I am a nicely-paid tech worker, and $10,000 wouldn't ruin me, but it would be a major setback for that year.

UC salaries are public[0] and it looks like he made $219k in 2019, which is pretty decent for a professor but yeah $10k would still definitely be a significant setback. [0] https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/

pretty decent for an incompetent professor in my opinion

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#199
post #160

Derek from Veritasium asked Xyla Foxlin to build a functional model, and she goes through the trials and tribulations of that in quite a bit of detail in her video here: https://youtu.be/VUgajGv4Aok There's a key aspect discussed in 7:10 relating to the ratio of the propeller pitch to the vehicle forward motion that is necessary for this to work. (Xyla's channel is a great follow overall btw)

Although not adding much value to the comment, I concur that her channel is great to watch. She is so enthusiastic she would make even the grumpiest professor smile.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#200

Kusenko "conceded on a technicality — that the vehicle moves marginally faster than the wind temporarily," Cavallaro said. "I offered him another $10,000 bet, because his technicality is entirely wrong, but I know I won't be hearing from him." Can anyone explain this line's reasoning?

Kusenko, who conceded the bet to Veritasium's Muller, only conceded that if you accelerate an object to wind speed and then the wind suddenly dies, your (low-drag) vehicle will continue downrange at a speed greater than the (now zero) speed of the wind on momentum alone.

That technicality, however, is a complete misunderstanding of how the vehicle works. The designer of the vehicle, Cavallaro, apparently only built the vehicle to prove the soundness of the physics to doubters, according to the narrative given by the Veritasium video. That designer offered a second $10,000 bet to Kusenko presumably simply excluding the technicality that Kusenko 'lost' to.

It would be a simple bet: that the vehicle can accelerate to and sustain a speed faster than any momentary peak wind speed during the race. Since the vehicle can reach 2.8x the wind speed, all it would take is the vehicle doing so while no gusts exceeded, say, 2.5 the average wind speed during the run.

The actual explanation, which apparently still escapes Kusenko:

If the wind speed is 10 knots from west to east, then this vehicle can accelerate to 10 knots going east by drag (east) alone. At that speed the apparent flow of air (from the reference frame of the vehicle) is zero, and so the drag (east) force on the vehicle is also now zero. At that point, you can rob energy from the wheels (manifesting as increased rolling resistance or west drag) to drive the propeller. This increased rolling resistance doesn't slow the craft, as long as the total rolling resistance is less than the drag force of the wind pushing us forward.

We use this energy to rotate a propeller to push air to the west. From the stationary/ground reference frame, the propeller will have the effect of slowing the airflow behind the vehicle from 10 knots relative to ground to 0 knots relative to ground. This energy -- robbed from the air -- pushes the vehicle forward (east) by Newton's third law.

The counterintuition is that the energy that pushes the vehicle forward is robbed from the wheels, i.e. from the vehicle itself. It's correct to understand that the acceleration from such a scheme would be (at best) a net zero.

The vehicle was already travelling at 10 knots, so the additional energy now being extracted from the wind makes the vehicle travel faster than 10 knots. Assuming the mass of the displaced air roughly equals the mass of the vehicle, this would get the vehicle to a total speed of 20 knots. As far as I understand it, you can then get the sqrt(2)~=1.4 multiplier from the pitch of the blades - the propeller blades do not face 'straight downwind' (perpendicular to the wind) but are angled. I think that this 1.4 * 2 * windspeed is what gives the 2.8 figure mentioned in the article.

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