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The 3x+1 Problem [video]

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Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#41

I watched this the other day. I was left wondering one big question. Why does this need to be solved? Would that even change anything?

> Why does this need to be solved?

Obviously it "doesn't". Equally obviously this is mathematics, and it's worth doing if it's interesting.

But a somewhat more serious answer is this: the fact that we don't know the answer to this relatively simple question implies strongly that we don't know how numbers work. And if there are obvious gaps in our understanding of number theory that show themselves in trivial ways like this, there are probably more serious questions that we could answer if we had a better framework.

And that's sort of how hard problems in mathematics work. They aren't solved by amazing insight within their own realm, they turn out to be evidence that a new branch of theory needs to be developed first.

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#43
post #25

It sometimes amazes me how utterly random problems like this end up being their own fields in mathematics. This ended up being a pretty fascinating problem, but coming up with an arbitrary equation like this and then checking to see if it satisfies yet another arbitrary requirement doesn't seem very difficult to do. Am I completely missing something here?

I don't get why this is being downvoted. For me math is pretty much a mystery, in a sense that it seems so arbitrary once you move from simple concepts that were initially grounded in a real world (like counting pebbles or splitting a circle). And it's not because I'm particularly badly educated, after all I believe we all can agree that Eugene Wigner [1] knew a bit of math and he still was wondering the same thing [2].

So soheil's question doesn't seem ignorant of meaningless to me. One could probably reframe it to become something similar to philosophy of Gödel's theorems, in lines of "there may (or may not) exist an infinite number of problems in number theories that are very simply formulated but are impossible/hard to prove or disprove". Consequence of that being that our abilities to have a definitive proof of statements are negligible and we're thus fundamentally trapped in an infinitely small space of outer mathematical universe.

I'm sorry if I'm saying something stupid here (or on the contrary, some well-known fact), like I said, I know nothing about mathematics so the two are equally possible to me.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness...

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#44
post #30

My biggest take-away from this was FRACTRAN[1], The Bestest Ever™ programming language designed by the (sadly, late) John Conway. To run a FRACTRAN program, you lookup its catalogue number, and repeatedly evaluate a certain simple function on it (which has the same spirit as the 3x + 1 one in the video). As in 3x+1, all operations are integer operations. FRACTRAN is Turing-complete, of course, so you can rewrite any…

> 3x+1 is, too, a programming language

What does this mean? Isn't having a catalog essentially precomputing a function for every possible input?

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#45
post #31

On the wikipedia page for the Collatz conjecture, there is a statement of the Collatz conjecture "in reverse" by growing a graph where R(n) = {2n, (n-1)/3} for n ≡ 4 mod 6, and R(n) = 2n for n ≡ 0,1,2,3,5 mod 6. I wonder how many attempted proofs attempt to solve through this bottom up approach rather than top-down.

About a week ago, I spent several hours after midnight in this ultimate nerd trap.

I started with powers of 2 that obviously reduce to the cycle and tried to apply these transitions inferring larger and larger sets of numbers whose binary representation satisfies specific regular expressions on 0 and 1s, but got lost pretty quickly.

My intuition is that, given that several generalizations of Collatz Conjecture are undecidable (equivalent to a halting problem), this process is in the territory of being not yet Turing-complete but already undecidable. But I am pretty sure many people way smarter than me tried this approach as well.

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#46
post #38
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does one climb a mountain?

To get to the other side. (great answer though, thanks, I'll use it later)

I thought you just congratulated yourself on a good answer to why climb a mountain. But seriously though, the answer was a question itself, albeit rhetorical. But then you answered it lol...

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#48
I've gone through several periods of obsession with this problem. One of its addictive qualities is that, even if you're getting no closer to a solution, it's easy to find a bunch of related patterns within patterns within patterns, a beautiful balance of order and chaos, a wonderful endless fractal of emerging patterns to play with and explore.

For instance: arrange all integers with negatives between positives, as such: 1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, 4, -4, etc. Now choose any integer, positive or negative, and follow it to the next integer. For example, if you choose 3, go forward 3 spaces on the list, landing on -4. This is negative, so we go back 4 spaces, landing on -2, which leads to -1. Conjecture: All integers eventually lead back to the 1, -1 loop at the beginning. This can be shown to be a variation of the Collatz; that is, if Collatz is true, this must be true and vice versa.

I also attempted to prove Collatz by focusing on the odds only, that's where the real action is... Failed of course as it's not quite rigorous enough to disprove potential looping (it does at least prove that it cannot diverge to infinity), but may be of interest to someone else obsessed with the problem: https://youtu.be/P0F4zbNdbTU

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#49
post #25

It sometimes amazes me how utterly random problems like this end up being their own fields in mathematics. This ended up being a pretty fascinating problem, but coming up with an arbitrary equation like this and then checking to see if it satisfies yet another arbitrary requirement doesn't seem very difficult to do. Am I completely missing something here?

> doesn't seem very difficult to do. What makes you think this? You just had area experts tell you otherwise. Do you think that mathematicians are lying to you?

I think you misunderstood the answer with the problem. Coming with the answer to this problem is clearly difficult. But what makes 3x+1 as a problem so hard to come up with?

Re: The 3x+1 Problem [video]

#50
post #30

My biggest take-away from this was FRACTRAN[1], The Bestest Ever™ programming language designed by the (sadly, late) John Conway. To run a FRACTRAN program, you lookup its catalogue number, and repeatedly evaluate a certain simple function on it (which has the same spirit as the 3x + 1 one in the video). As in 3x+1, all operations are integer operations. FRACTRAN is Turing-complete, of course, so you can rewrite any…

> 3x+1 is, too, a programming language What does this mean? Isn't having a catalog essentially precomputing a function for every possible input?

3x+1 produces binary, up or down, so perhaps the integers are shortcuts or an index to any binary sequence. The termination of the sequence is 4,2,1
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