Live data from Hacker News

Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

bbc.com

921–930 of 1001 posts

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#921
post #846
post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this take a lot, and it’s kind of misinformed. The primary drawbacks of nuclear are: 1) incredible slow to build. A typical plant takes ~20 years from decision to productionized 2) extremely expensive, with a massively frontloaded cost. By contrast, solar and wind are fast to install and now cheaper. > wind power can be zero at some parts of the day There are a few solutions to this actually. First, having a mo…

Don't forget the substantial costs to clean up. Just think about growing up in a world full of EOL nuclear plants left by generations before you that need to be cleaned up... In a political unstable world due to an ongoing climate crisis. Even today we as a whole struggle with decommissioning nuclear plants, and the costs are astronomical this is already a huge problem now, let alone in a post climate change world ht…

Just think about a world full of EOL toxic waste ash ponds left by coal power plants, each of them vastly more toxic and teratogenic than any nuclear plant, let alone a decommissioned one.

In fact, you don’t need to imagine it, you are living the dream.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this for years, but I finally get why "Just. Tax. It." doesn't work. The voters. They turn out in droves when it comes to taxes on something as visible as the price they pay at the pump or when it comes to the oil patch in Alberta. It's politically easier to create import duties or to go into debt and subsidize things. The level of taxation we need to stop a complete catastrophe is higher than people…

That's a fundamental problem with any regulatory measure intended to reduce carbon emissions. Cheap energy is good for the economy. Fossil fuels are cheap. Any attempt to reduce the use of fossil fuels is going to hurt voters in the short term no matter how you package it. Sure, you can try to be sneaky about it, implementing policies that only indirectly impact fossil fuels and hoping the voters don't notice you're…

You really should not be sneaky about it - some of the populist-or-worse parties here in Europe are already full into "eco-fashist EU is taking away your cars!" together with their usual drivel.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me this makes so much sense. But when you look at the costs involved it's far cheaper and less risky to deploy 2x in renewables and a bunch of energy storage plus some gas plants and long distance transmission. New innovations in nuclear maybe have a chance to change this, but renewables are still getting cheaper so even if they succeed they must still beat the moving target. In another world where we had embraced…

> deploy 2x in renewables and a bunch of energy storage plus some gas plants and long distance transmission Is it actually sufficient? Feel free to link even technical sources (as long as it is not paywalled without way of checking quality). My impression is that right now "bunch of energy storage" is 100% unfeasible to provide power from renewables without blackouts. And existing ones work thanks to nearby countries…

> "bunch of energy storage" is 100% unfeasible to provide power from renewables without blackouts

Telsa’s prototype in Australia was able to prove you can stabilise a grid at scale, profitably and with simple enough technology. In addition to Li-ion (that provides good response) you can have gravity-based capacity (essentially a crane), heat-storage (rocks kept at 4000ºC feeding a thermal power plant) and liquid-metal batteries. Two of those are mostly century-old tech redesigned for a word with cheap intermittent energy; the third seems like the best, most reliable, simplest, most scalable idea out of MIT from the last decade.

I have the impression that these represent enough options, with enough evidence that it will be profitable within a short lifespan, so I’m not even sure you want government support. But if they can facilitate permits, access to the grid, etc. why not get the help? All those will stabilise the grid no matter what source of power we have, so why not implement what we can at scale, see how it helps, and double it six months later if it works? After five years, we should have enough to tell how much wind and sun it can cover but I can’t see why it wouldn’t handle 100% of demand. All of those ideas can be any size, from a hand to a large city; all have many alternative elements to adapt to circumstances, price point; there are complementary and work well together.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A typical plant takes ~20 years from decision to productionized If this were truly "code red" and people really believed that, we would find a way to push the bureaucrats out of the way and build nuclear capacity way sooner than 20 yrs. Humans can do amazing things under dire stress. This is not happening, so I will assume "code red" is hyperbole, something that the IPCC is not entirely known to shun.

> This is not happening, so I will assume "code red" is hyperbole If you take the current pandemic as an example of what we do when under dire stress, I don't think we should be that confident. Yes, some people can perform astonishing feats, and yet other people can deny there's even a problem even when it's obvious.

I wouldn't call a disease with a mortality rate < 1% and that is really only a threat to old people "dire stress"

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#926
post #890
post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

Carbon taxes are political suicide in the US. In fact, we know that oil companies push for them exactly because they know how unpopular they are. In Washington state, one of the more progressive states, they've failed over and over again to pass a carbon tax. Nothing they can do makes it work politically. In France, a carbon tax kicked off the yellow vests movement. Like it or not, the Green New Deal framing works be…

I think Washington state did manage to pass a carbon tax?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-states-...

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#927
There's a lot of nonsense in these comments that doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny.

>Humanity is going to go extinct

There's no evidence for that. A temperature rise of 2 degrees celsius is by no means a threat to the human race. It is a problem, but not an extinction event.

>We should invest in nuclear

Nuclear is extremely expensive and prone to going wrong. It's not a valid argument to state that "nuclear has improved and now it's safe" because nothing is 100% safe and the Fukushima Daiichi disaster is a perfect demonstration of how even recent iterations of the technology with multiple redundancies can go wrong.

>Wind/solar doesn't work because it's intermittent

There's no reason we can't have a distributed network of wind and solar farms around the world that can fulfill demand at all times.

>We should tax carbon

Taxing carbon could reduce output, sure, but the fact is that humanity is dependent on fossil fuels right now. How can you possibly suggest we start punishing consumers for their carbon footprint when there is no viable alternative? Besides, reducing output at this scale won't have any impact now, it's too late for that. We need to be reversing output.

>We need to stop eating meat on Mondays

Sorry but these schemes have no purpose other than to make one feel good about themselves. Most people are not interested in giving up meat at all, let alone for one day a week, so the demand for meat isn't budging. Meat alternatives are promising but won't take hold unless the consumer has an incentive to switch.

>We need to capture carbon from the atmosphere

This kind of technology has been debunked by Thunderf00t and many others. To grab that carbon you need to spend at least as much energy as you got from the combustion. So, effectively we need AT LEAST as much energy as we have used since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Trees are good at gathering carbon but they're not good as a long-term carbon sink.

>We need to use electric cars

...this solves nothing. The energy still needs to come from somewhere, the carbon is still in the atmosphere, and moreover we need to build everybody a new car which is a carbon-heavy and environmentally unfriendly process in itself.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these simulations public? Can I run see and run the code? Are all aspects taken into account that can affect the outcome, such as, Earth's magnetic field strength, activity of the Sun, shifting of magnetic poles?

As far as I know, the code is secret and the data that it runs on is secret, i.e., it is not science, and it is not really even attempting to appear to be science to anyone who knows what science is. Not reproducible even in theory due to secrecy means it cannot be science. It's not even wrong. Besides being secret and likely buggy, any simulation of the climate necessarily incomplete, i.e. it omits quite a lot of ph…

Source?

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#929
post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this take a lot, and it’s kind of misinformed. The primary drawbacks of nuclear are: 1) incredible slow to build. A typical plant takes ~20 years from decision to productionized 2) extremely expensive, with a massively frontloaded cost. By contrast, solar and wind are fast to install and now cheaper. > wind power can be zero at some parts of the day There are a few solutions to this actually. First, having a mo…

>A typical plant takes ~20 years from decision to productionized If this were truly "code red" and people really believed that, we would find a way to push the bureaucrats out of the way and build nuclear capacity way sooner than 20 yrs. Humans can do amazing things under dire stress. This is not happening, so I will assume "code red" is hyperbole, something that the IPCC is not entirely known to shun.

> I will assume "code red" is hyperbole, something that the IPCC is not entirely known to shun.

I'm not sure that’s the case and I would encourage you to dig into what the worst or medium range scenario would mean. As I understand it, the _middle_ scenario predicts that a billion people would either die in a climate-related catastrophe or be displaced before 2050. That means that several ethnic or cultural groups would go through essentially genocide.

There are details like loss of water reserves in California and the impact on food access in the US, fish population collapse, climate-related migration from the densest populated areas in the world that are very concerning.

I’ve seen scientist give very clear alarms on several global issues (usually my father was making the point); I’ve personally made several myself, and every single time, the reaction was… dumbfounding: trying to minimise, negotiate, taking the most optimistic scenario as a worst case, delaying…

I have, unironically, witnessed several conversations that literally went:

“If you do that, you, your family and your way of life will die forever.

— You are exaggerating, that’s too scary.”

They did nothing, and soon later: exactly what the prediction said.

This is not only the most common scenario, it is the only scenario I’ve seen, with one exception: CFC and the Ozone layer. And that was because there’s a handful of industrials, who had clear alternatives that proved cheaper.

“Other people do nothing; I’d rather believe the reassuring story than evidence” is exactly how we end up with the bystander effect.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#930

There's a lot of nonsense in these comments that doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny. >Humanity is going to go extinct There's no evidence for that. A temperature rise of 2 degrees celsius is by no means a threat to the human race. It is a problem, but not an extinction event. >We should invest in nuclear Nuclear is extremely expensive and prone to going wrong. It's not a valid argument to state that "nuclear…

> Humanity is going to go extinct

Yeah, this is about as fact-based as "there is no global warming"

> ...this solves nothing. The energy still needs to come from somewhere

It can come from renewables, unlike with combustion engine

> There's no reason we can't have a distributed network of wind and solar farms around the world that can fulfill demand at all times.

cost, energy losses, political issues (nothing making it impossible but I would not describe it as "no reason")

And power loses from Africa to say Poland would be quite unfun.

> because nothing is 100% safe

Duh.

> Nuclear is extremely expensive

Waive nearly all regulation and it would be cheaper.

(yes, we would get some meltdowns - but if people actually believed "extinction threat to humanity", "red alert" etc then it would be preferable. And likely still less radioactive than carbon power.)

Post reply on HN