Live data from Hacker News

Done with YC: Age Discrimination

news.ycombinator.com

61–70 of 140 posts

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#61
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have raised money before almost 20 years ago. That sure must help.

That's precisely why being an older person helps. You have experience under your belt. If you're 55 and have never done anything, that's a strong signal to not invest in you, since you're unlikely to do something now. 20-year-olds are risks. 55-year-old have track records.

A 55 year old who is new to entrepreneurship should be viewed as analogous to a 20 year old, not worse. Track record should be evaluated without reference to age, there's nothing wrong with pivoting in your career. I thought maybe OP was reading into things too much (and maybe he is with respect to YC), but you're proving his point.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#62
post #55

Why is this post getting so many upvotes? "Age discrimination" - based on what?! If I am a vegan and get constantly rejected by YC, should I create a post: "Done with YC: They hate vegans"? I expect much better from HN. What the hell.

I find it interesting. You can try your vegan post. Sounds a bit dull but go for it.

Of course it sounds dull for you, it's not relating to you. This post, of course is. You are afraid of getting old / being old, so these kind of posts makes you emotional. Makes you click that upvote button. Even though it has absolutely no evidence. Aren't we all so easily manipulated by our emotions?

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#63
post #35

You've got YC one-itis. There are a zillion other places to raise money. Any one funding source says no 98% of the time, it has nothing to do with you. -a 55 year old founder who just raised a $20M Series A

As an older founder, it's easier to raise $20M Series A than as a younger founder. I'm pretty confident I have a much better chance of raising money than I did a decade or two ago. To be specific, I think I would have had almost no chance way back when, and I think I'd probably have better-than-even-odds today, if I tried (which I wouldn't; I'm committed to what I'm doing). However, that doesn't mean places don't age…

The move to SFBA is a real issue, and an obstacle for anyone with family commitments. I'm not sure what they can realistically do about it, since part of the premise of the program is that you're benefiting from being physically proximate to them.

The rest of this, I think you're wrong about.

I'm at a YC company right now (Fly.io) --- technically, I'm a YC founder at Fly.io --- and I've spent the last several years working directly with YC companies, and I haven't perceived any distinctive "80 hour work week, subsist on ramen" lifestyle out of those companies. I know why people believe this about YC companies, and I think it's a convenient fiction YC itself sort of deliberately doesn't knock back, but I don't think there's much truth to it.

I used to think 7% was ludicrous for what YC was bringing to the table, but YC brings a lot more to the table now than it did when I thought that. There are cynical ways to look at the YC benefit and there are generous ways to look at it, but either way: if you're going to go on to raise more money, you're getting something significantly more than $125k for the share you give up.

I'd be more concerned about the "$125k for a founding team is ludicrous" thing but for the fact that for me, and for most of the people I talk to about this stuff, the alternative to YC is bootstrapping and consulting. If you're looking at the money YC gives you for the session as the entire financial permission structure for your company, you weren't going to succeed no matter who invested in your company.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#64

Why is this post getting so many upvotes? "Age discrimination" - based on what?! If I am a vegan and get constantly rejected by YC, should I create a post: "Done with YC: They hate vegans"? I expect much better from HN. What the hell.

It's getting upvotes because indignation + sensationalism always gets the most upvotes (this is the weakness of the upvoting system [1]), plus the meta aspect is a force multiplier. Also age discrimination is a perennially hot topic here.

It's also getting a lot of flags, which is why the post is not on HN's front page. Just in case anyone is wondering, there's no moderation penalty on it. The tug of war between upvotes and flags is the cycle of life on HN [2]. It's quite normal for a sensational post to get a rapid sugar rush of upvotes, followed by other users flagging it once they see (and don't want to see) it on the front page.

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#65

I absolutely agree that age discrimination exists in our industry, and it’s even worse in SV. But I really think you’re barking up the wrong tree here. Anytime you have an institution with single digit acceptance rates, you invariably are going to have truly excellent candidates who don’t make it in.

Agreed. It feels like they're trying to claim that they were rejected for age... without providing any evidence. They don't want to come out and say it. But by suggesting enough, it's sure implied.

IMO they had enough evidence to provide an implication, and so that's what we have. The implication. The ammunition comes from the fact that YC asks for your age very early in the process. Either that piece of information is relevant and worth asking... or it's not. That YC asks implies they want the info.

But personally I don't think that's enough ammo to start a large forum discussion.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't really answer the above question (What evidence would convince you)

Oh, you're right, I missed it. Hm, let's think together, it's a tough one, isn't it? Statistics? Let's say YC never invested in founders over 35. Would that be enough though? Maybe there are other reasons why people over 35 are not the greatest people to invest in and that's why they haven't done it? It's all hypothetical, but we can ask: in general, what proves discrimination? I for sure don't think the main post is…

> it's a tough one

For sure.

> Statistics

Bingo!

YC certainly keeps stats on their acceptance info. They don't accept 99% of those that apply. What % of those that get accepted are over 35, compared to those that apply? What % aren't white men? Multiple founders?

> I for sure don't think the main post is evidence of anything, so I struggle to see how it's getting so popular.

Because OP has a reason to believe they were discriminated against. They ask the question to A.) See if others come forward, B.) Hope/expect YC to produce the statistics we just talked about, either proving or disproving a pattern of discriminatory behavior. And if YC knows they don't discriminate based on age, there should be absolutely no issue with them producing their data supporting that claim, right?

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words, the considerations are completely unrelated to everything you're implying. Discrimination and bias are often unconscious, rather than an explicit decision. Suppose that YC was biased against X, and that therefore the startup pool you can select from contains mostly ~X. You could select for interesting, substantive startups in Meet The Batch threads, and it would still reveal the absence of X. I'll b…

I deleted that sentence because it made my post too long, but since you've quoted it, I'll put it back. I was talking there about the editorial decision surrounding HN launches. That's not related to YC's funding decisions. It's not clear to me what your point is, unless it was simply to mention unconscious bias. Saying that you or anyone would somehow be risking yourself by posting to HN is also a little obscure.

It's a risk any time I speak to you, because a large part of my life is HN, and speaking to you risks another penalty. I didn't mean it as an accusation, it just seems to be the mechanics of me-speaking-to-you.

I also apologize for quoting a sentence that you cut. That happened to me earlier, and it's always frustrating, even if it was unintentional.

My point was, your comment seems to be mistaken in a revealing way. If it were true that YC was biased, then your editorial decisions wouldn't be able to influence anything in relation to the bias. The bias would already have an impact on the startup pool that you can select from.

In other words, your decisions about HN's "Meet the Batch" threads seem unrelated to the question of YC's alleged age discrimination. But you felt that your decisions were related, since you were saying "We don't select for age" in regards to the Meet The Batch threads.

Bias is something that you can't force someone to care about. I'm hoping that it may be a lightbulb moment for you, as it once was for me. It's never any fun to be a part of an organization accused of some form of bias, but asking yourself "Could it be true?" is a mental exercise that personally I found helpful.

That said, you were correct that this commenter posted those startups without knowing the ages of the founders. It could be possible that those startups have older founders. But no one seems to be quite sure. It's lame of them to make an insinuation like that without knowing the ages of the founders – burden of proof – but it's also worth considering whether it's true, even if it was a lame accusation.

Anyway. I didn't say any of this to put you on the defensive. That'd be the opposite way to change your mind. Just think it over a moment, is all I ask.

EDIT: After re-reading this chain, perhaps I'm off the mark here (a common theme). From my perspective, it sounded like someone was saying "Well, it might be true; these startups do seem pretty young and trendy..." and then you were listing reasons why that was mistaken.

It sounded like you didn't necessarily care about whether YC is age discriminatory. My goal here was to convince you it may be worth caring about it.

If you already do care about that, then never mind. My mistake. I see now that your point about editorial decisions was an expansion of a different train of thought.

One last point to give a moment of pause: If you list N random politicians, most of them will probably be pretty old, because politics is biased against youth. If you list N random YC companies, will the ages of their founders tend to skew younger or older (relative to the proportion of those age groups that apply)? That might be one way to investigate the claim.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#68

Why is this post getting so many upvotes? "Age discrimination" - based on what?! If I am a vegan and get constantly rejected by YC, should I create a post: "Done with YC: They hate vegans"? I expect much better from HN. What the hell.

The YC application requires you to list your age, it does not ask if you are vegan. I think it's completely legitimate to ask why age is explicitly included in the application process. I also think it's an interesting discussion whether it is okay that things like requiring relocation unintentionally bias against age (I think it is okay, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless).

I'll grant you that the title is total click bait, and I don't think it's likely the OP specifically was rejected due to ageism. But I don't think that was his main point.

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words, the considerations are completely unrelated to everything you're implying. Discrimination and bias are often unconscious, rather than an explicit decision. Suppose that YC was biased against X, and that therefore the startup pool you can select from contains mostly ~X. You could select for interesting, substantive startups in Meet The Batch threads, and it would still reveal the absence of X. I'll b…

I deleted that sentence because it made my post too long, but since you've quoted it, I'll put it back. I was talking there about the editorial decision surrounding HN launches. That's not related to YC's funding decisions. It's not clear to me what your point is, unless it was simply to mention unconscious bias. Saying that you or anyone would somehow be risking yourself by posting to HN is also a little obscure.

[flagged]

Re: Done with YC: Age Discrimination

#70

Why is this post getting so many upvotes? "Age discrimination" - based on what?! If I am a vegan and get constantly rejected by YC, should I create a post: "Done with YC: They hate vegans"? I expect much better from HN. What the hell.

The YC application requires you to list your age, it does not ask if you are vegan. I think it's completely legitimate to ask why age is explicitly included in the application process. I also think it's an interesting discussion whether it is okay that things like requiring relocation unintentionally bias against age (I think it is okay, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless). I'll grant you that the title i…

I absolutely agree with you, it's a nice conversation to be had. But this post wasn't about "why age is explicitly included in the application process".
Post reply on HN