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Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

psyche.co

121–130 of 174 posts

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#121

My working definition of stupidity is making poor predictions that lead to self-harm. The more stupid the predictions, the more extreme the self-harm. I'm not sure trying to improvise a way through a novel kind of conflict counts as stupid so much as untrained. Maybe there was someone in WWI saying "This is obviously wrong and won't work - we should do this other thing instead." Maybe there wasn't. At this distance i…

That is an amazing definition. It is so simple, but gives insight into so much.

Also love how you applied that to the current big problem of politics.

Now it's got me thinking about certain people who don't have the horsepower to generate good models, who are successful in life, despite their stupidity, because they still avoid bad decisions. And how certain behaviors and beliefs can mitigate stupidity quite well.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#122

The adjudication of what is stupid is inevitably subjective, rather than absolute, because it depends on the objectives and interests of the subject, as distinct from the observer.

> subjective, rather than absolute This is a false dichotomy. If I am trying try accomplish X, it is absolutely true that I am trying to accomplish X. Both you (the observer) and I can acknowledge this fact. > adjudication of what is stupid is inevitably subjective No, because as you yourself say... > it depends on the objectives and interests of the subject and what objective you're pursuing is factually the case as…

> If I am trying try accomplish X, it is absolutely true that I am trying to accomplish X. Both you (the observer) and I can acknowledge this fact.

How does the observer know what someone else is trying to accomplish? The observer cannot peer into the person's mind.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#123
I understand that the author was just using WW1 western front strategy & tactics for illustrative purposes, but I feel that far too many people think that the leadership of the armies involved were simply idiots, stuck in the mud, etc. The reality is quite different.

Most military strategists understood before the war broke out how important recent tech developments (e.g. machine guns, improved artillery, etc) were in the defense. Prior to the outbreak of hostilities, most military thinkers felt that it was best to bypass defensive fortifications. They understood that charging trenches and machine guns would lead to horrendous casualties. They wanted to fight a war of maneuver to counter strong static defenses. This was essentially a no-brainer.

What they did not foresee was 1) how rapidly ad-hoc fortifications (i.e. trench lines) could be extended; and 2) the massive amount of ammunition expenditure by artillery. That part is critical... because it means that advances had to slow down to account for the logistics train. Which meant that fortifications couldn't be as easily bypassed... which meant trenches could be extended further...

And thus, quite rapidly, the entire western front was covered in trenches/fortifications. At that point, it all becomes political. The governments want a win. At any cost. And orders are orders. When you can't go around, there's not much you can do but charge forward (after an huge artillery barrage, of course... which leads to more logistical headaches)

In short, the military leadership in ww1 wasn't any more "stupid" than usual. They were simply stuck between a rock and hard place.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#124
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could force a drawn-out engagement, though, which in many cases the attackers couldn't support. You needed a lot fewer people to defend a castle than to assault it.

It seems much easier for the attackers to supply themselves (even in a foreign land) such that encircle-and-wait would virtually ensure an attacker victory if no one came to the defender’s aid.

> It seems much easier for the attackers to supply themselves (even in a foreign land)

That's a modern-transportation perspective. Unless the siege happens to be on a waterway and you supply that way.

Land-based logistics for pre-modern armies was _hard_. The standard solution was to keep the army on the move and forage as you went, so you kept stealing food from new peasants, but that's not an option for an army laying a siege. On the other hand, if the castle/town knew a siege was coming they would move things like livestock from the surrounding countryside inside the walls, and the grain stores were likely _already_ inside the walls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Nuremberg explicitly mentions supply as a problem for the besieging army in that case, and that's an early-modern army, not premodern. http://hundredyearswar.com/Books/History/Sieges.htm also says "the siege was often lifted because the besieging commander ran out of food to feed or money to pay his troops".

In practice, what this meant is that you would not even start a siege unless you had some idea that you could ensure supply, which was the common situation.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#125
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding "It was also the first true industrial war" , you may like this quote by Scott Westerfeld on the Wikipedia page for Dieselpunk [1] "But to me, World War I is the dividing point where modernity goes from being optimistic to being pessimistic. Because when you put the words "machine" and "gun" together, they both change. At that point, war is no longer about a sense of adventure and chivalry and a way of test…

> At that point, war is no longer about a sense of adventure and chivalry and a way of testing your nation's level of manhood; it's become industrial, and horrible. That sounds like a dangerous glorification of pre-industrial war.

maybe, but the difference im scale would still be the same.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#126
post #18

The author may be onto something. Or they may have had one good idea and are now trying to make it fit too many problems. WWI did have moments of extreme stupidity. But the real problem was that, for the first time since castles vs. troops without cannon, defense was stronger than offense. Machine guns, barbed wire, and trenches could resist most attacks. When that wasn't enough, both sides had plenty of railroad cap…

>for the first time since castles vs. troops without cannon, defense was stronger than offense In the seminal book "On War" which was published in 1832 and is still required reading in many military academies, Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz explicitly says that defense is stronger than offense. Maybe this intensified in WWI

This is still true and accepted military doctrine. We look for at least a 3:1 force ratio before considering attack a viable option. It's not exactly scientific and plenty of military historians have questioned the validity of this rule of thumb, but it still is the official doctrine, at least of the US Army. I can't speak for other countries.

Force ratio doesn't have to be strictly numerical, though. Offense can have better weapons, rely on element of surprise, and we also like to attack during really bad weather because it sucks a lot more to be dug in during a rainstorm than to be on the move. There's also some advantage in indirect fire in that it's easier for artillery to hit a stationary target than a moving one, so provided your artillery itself is mobile enough to survive counterbattery strikes, that goes to the offense. Unless the defense is so well dug in that artillery can't even affect it. So it depends on a lot of things.

But in general, defense always has the advantage. They get to choose where to fight, they can prepare their positions, they don't need to expose themselves.

I guess it's reversed in cyberwarfare if you want to think of it that way, but it's really not analogous. It's never been all that difficult to sneak a small surgical force inside an enemy perimeter, but you can't take and hold land that way, which is what attack versus defense force ratios are thinking of. This is more of a law enforcement thing, which has always relied on either having more cops than criminals or extremely harsh punishments. The issue here is we can't enforce the law against foreign actors if the host nation won't help. When actual Americans have been caught breaking into American computer systems, they've totally had the book thrown at them and I think that really has deterred domestically launched cyberattacks. It's not like the NSA can't find you, but if the only way to actually stop you is to send in Seal Team Six, that isn't worth starting a real war over.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#127
post #100

My working definition of stupidity is making poor predictions that lead to self-harm. The more stupid the predictions, the more extreme the self-harm. I'm not sure trying to improvise a way through a novel kind of conflict counts as stupid so much as untrained. Maybe there was someone in WWI saying "This is obviously wrong and won't work - we should do this other thing instead." Maybe there wasn't. At this distance i…

Case in point: former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. He was obviously quite intelligent, in the sense that he was well educated and would have scored highly on any standard IQ test. Yet he consistently made stupid decisions with drastic consequences for the entire world.

Famous Chekhov quote: "Университет развивает все способности, в том числе — глупость". Or in English: "a university education develops all one's abilities, including stupidity".

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#128
It’s about the plasticity of your brain, but also sometimes about the opposite: holding firm mentally. Some brains hold simpler models with greater certainty. Some brains hold more complex models with less certainty. Each type witnesses instances of “stupidity” in the other; overly plastic brains (guilty) can seem aloof, imprecise; the opposite can seem too literal and closed-minded. Guess which brain votes for which political party :).

However, the caveat is that the latter brain is more suited to the world right now, with society becoming information rich and complex, and with nuanced social norms (not just x is good, y is bad). Of course I’m biased here.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#129
post #123

I understand that the author was just using WW1 western front strategy & tactics for illustrative purposes, but I feel that far too many people think that the leadership of the armies involved were simply idiots, stuck in the mud, etc. The reality is quite different. Most military strategists understood before the war broke out how important recent tech developments (e.g. machine guns, improved artillery, etc) were i…

It was still pretty stupid to not see that situation is the situation in 1915 and calling for a cease-fire and peace talks, stop right there, for the benefit of all sides.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#130
I think "stupidity" as a specific set of traits that people can express either occasionally or continuously.

I don't think stupidity is the same as lack of intelligence or wisdom. Highly intelligent people can behave stupidly, too.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this. I arrived that stupidity is lack of intelligence/wisdom AND/OR inability to make use of intelligence/wisdom.

For example, one way you can be intelligent and yet stupid is if you lack self-reflection and/or are dishonest with yourself. This impairs ability to acquire wisdom -- honest observations about truth of yourself and the world around you, may make you repeat same mistakes without realizing what is causing them, etc.

Being unable to learn from your mistakes (maybe because you are not honest enough to recognize them as mistakes or recognize true causes) basically prevents you from advancing as human being. If your level of advancement is below your age you might be labeled as "stupid".

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