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Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

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Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#761

Post by TOGoS »

jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

> collective action isn't something we can rely on

> Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side

Getting the government to do anything that impacts the profits of powerful companies will itself require heroic amounts of well-organized collective action.

> the incentive for a brilliant mind/leader to become the next Bezos/Musk via climate change technology

The problem is political, not technical. Moreover, people who become billionaires are averse to questioning the economic systems that prevent us from being able to take collective action to tackle climate change (and other systemic problems), because it has served them so well. That's why they build bunkers and space ships in the hope of personal salvation. They ain't going to fix this for us. It's collective action or apocalypse.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#762

Post by Lammy »

jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

> If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on

Thank goodness dummies like me have smart authoritarians like you to make decisions for us about what The Right Thing™ is :)

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#763

Post by jazzyjackson »

NonContro wrote: post #576
corey_moncure wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have an ideal carbon capture technology optimized by Nature Inc. through a state of the art evolutionary algorithm running trillions of parallel processes for billions of years. It's called Trees (TM). With Trees (TM) the CO2 emissions problem has a simple two step solution that anyone can accomplish with ease: 1) Stop cutting down Trees 2) Plant more Trees That's it. The end. Problem solved.

That's not really accurate, since the trees will biodegrade at the end of their lifecycle. We would need to recreate the Azolla Event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azolla_event Or even the Carboniferous period where microbes could not digest lignin and cellulose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous Which is impossible. We simply need to stop digging fossil fuels out of the ground in order to burn them.

If a whole forest grows and the whole forest dies, you’re right, no carbon is captured.

But if a whole forest is created and maintained, even as trees die and rot they build the biomass of the soil and undergrowth: every ton of life is carbon and heat energy captured - individuals live and die, but the overall biomass can increase, capturing carbon and energy in the form of healthy ecosystems.

As another commenter pointed out, if humanity just left earth tomorrow, it would take eons for CO2 ppm to fall, so we should be doing something proactive. Plus, planting and caring for trees is something everyone can do and gets us away from the “wait for a super villain billionaire to solve it” mentality.

Edit: thanks for the link to Azolla, hadn’t heard of that

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#764

Post by jonathankoren »

kumarvvr wrote: post #488
bko wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, western countries have reduced carbon emissions over the last ~15 years, in both absolute and per capita terms (despite a growing population). The only countries that are growing their carbon emissions are developing countries; mainly China, India and Russia. China is particularly troubling since they make up 28% of all emissions (US is 15%) and they have both a growing population and growing emiss…

> The only countries that are growing their carbon emissions are developing countries; mainly China, India and Russia Developed nations have polluted the planet for decades, with highest rates of energy consumption per capita. They have failed to build systems and processess that enables sustainable living. They have lived their excess and now lecture the world that their "90% of emissions are from consumption" One g…

This is true, but also so what? I’m serious. So what? What’s your point? Fuck all y’all I want burn coal because you did? What’s next? Demanding to play with gasoline and open flames, because someone else did?

This is childish behavior that focuses more on trying to trying to score some sort of shame points rather than say… survival. I hate[+] to be the one tell you, but those very people you think you’re supporting, are the very ones least capable of protecting themselves from climate disruption.

[+] This isn’t true. I actually enjoy it.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#765

Post by daxfohl »

whiddershins wrote: post #436

The notion that humanity would go extinct from any of this is absolutely unrealistic. What we are talking about is at worst massive economic damage and loss of life, similar to a very serious war. Which is horrible, but really not the threat it is made out to be. Moreover, since these changes happen relatively slowly (compared to bombs and such) much of the loss of life can be mitigated. So we are talking economic da…

I think there's a reasonable chance of that. We'll figure out different crops to grow, we'll move away from deserts, etc. It may be hard, life expectancy may fall steeply, but we'll adapt largely intact, and then we'll eventually run out of fossil fuels anyway.

But if you look at what's happening in the Great Barrier Reef. It's dying. The ecosystem is dying from the bottom, and nothing on top can survive either. I think this is a very real possibility too.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#766

Post by gruez »

brightstep wrote: post #694
ihuk wrote: post #478

We bought an expensive washing machine 3 years ago thinking it will last us a long time. It already broke down twice. It's been broken for almost a month now waiting for parts and whatnot. There's a good chance we'll have to get another one. Does Electrolux/AEG care? No. They don't care about the environment, their only obligation is to their shareholders. But frankly neither do I anymore. Next time, I'll buy the che…

A handful of corporations are responsible for the vast majority of warming. It's not our fault, it's theirs. They did it, and they knew they were doing it. Any individual action may make you feel good but it does nothing to address the problem.

>A handful of corporations are responsible for the vast majority of warming. It's not our fault, it's theirs. They did it, and they knew they were doing it.

Consumers want oil. Drilling for oil is legal. BP drills for oil. Why is BP's fault?

Or, to switch around the entities a bit. America likes widgets. Making widgets generates pollution. Prior to the 90s it was mostly made in America, so that's where all the pollution is emitted. It's clear that America is to blame. Now it's the 2000s. Thanks to globalization it's now cheaper to make in China rather than the US. Now all the pollution is being emitted in china. Who's fault is it? Is America suddenly off the hook?

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#767

Post by it_citizen »

mberning wrote: post #700
habosa wrote: post #621

Just. Tax. It. We have warmed the earth because we love comfort and money. We will never stop loving those things. So instead let's use the same systems to fix this (or at least slow things down). As an individual my largest carbon impact is air travel. I like to go places, it's one of the main things I work to afford. Every single plane ticket I take should have a tax which is used to offset or capture the carbon em…

Carbon taxes disproportionately hurt low income people. Rich folks will still drive their cars, fly on jets, and use tons of energy in general. Carbon taxes also make your nation less competitive in a global economy. That’s not good when enemy states have zero compunction about using fossil fuels to overtake you economically and militarily. Carbon taxes also incentivize industry to move production to nations with lit…

A carbon tax with dividends would solve that problem. It would be a net positive for the first 6 or 7 decile of the population while still sending a strong signal to the markets to switch to greener alternatives to stay competitive.

Regarding moving production abroad, the carbon tax should work hand in hand with a border adjustment mechanism.

You can look at how it has been implemented in Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#768

Post by skinkestek »

triceratops wrote: post #652
Joeri wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual action won’t solve this problem. We need to leave the fossil fuels in the ground, which means switching energy sources, which is not something individuals have much influence on. Reducing energy use at the individual level is good, but insufficient if the energy used comes from fossil fuels. I’m not sure we need to switch lifestyles that much, but we will need to radically change energy production. There h…

> Individual action won’t solve this problem This is true. But if large portions of the electorate start living like GP, they'll have no problem with voting for carbon taxes and other measures that'll cost money. They won't be swayed by talking heads on TV shouting "environmental Marxism!".

Since I am GP: I really hope I'd not fall for anything so stupid :-)

That said I am also a conservative and I think I know a bit about conservatives; if one want conservatives to change as fast as possible phrase it in a way that sounds reasonable to the conservative mind:

- it is economically smart on individual level

- "repairing things is the traditional thing to do" and "it feels good to be in control"

- "industry should look for ways to save resources to stay competitive and increase yield on investment for shareholders" (sorry, English is not my first language, if this reads as a parody it is not meant as)

- "take advantage of the green wave". Competitive advantage: Point out that wealthy consumers will, on average, choose the greener product if they are otherwise equal. (Maybe poor ones will too, but we are here to sell this idea, aren't we ;-)

- On a national level: we need to get independence from China

- "reach individual monetary independence faster by making smart choices"

Doing this instead of continuing to make a partisan issue about it should go a long way I think. That is, if getting the results is more important than "being right".

People are already making money this way: just yesterday I heard a close friend explaining enthusiastically (I'll translate it on the fly from my native language as well as adding my explanation of why I think this was potent):

- a US jeans company had gotten hold of "the last real loom that wasn't sent to China" (local business argument)

- "hired the old operators to teach the how to use it" (traditional argument),

- "picked it apart - about a million pieces - and restored it" (self sufficient etc argument)

- and are now selling expensive pants - but it is real jeans (the actual sales argument)

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#769

Post by tomatotomato37 »

jpeloquin wrote: post #715
mberning wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon taxes disproportionately hurt low income people. Rich folks will still drive their cars, fly on jets, and use tons of energy in general. Carbon taxes also make your nation less competitive in a global economy. That’s not good when enemy states have zero compunction about using fossil fuels to overtake you economically and militarily. Carbon taxes also incentivize industry to move production to nations with lit…

> Carbon taxes disproportionately hurt low income people. If the carbon tax collected was re-distributed uniformly as a tax credit (each person gets the same tax credit), would it still hurt low income people? I Googled this and it seems like it should help people with low incomes, but maybe there's something wrong with the underlying reasoning. https://aneconomicsense.org/2020/08/06/a-carbon-tax-with-red...

No, but every proposal so far hand waves the specifics of both what the tax will go to along with all the other technical details that would actually make the tax work. We could have a utopian world where the true value of carbon is consistently taxed equally across all industries and then distributed efficiently to those unfairly affected by it. We could also have an unholy bureaucrtic nightmare where the actual tax varies violently depending on which party in power, has exemptions for every industry big enough to have lobbyist, and instead completely burdens the middle class while all profits go towards filling the desert with enough tanks to fight WWII sixteen times over while still having enough left over to think really, really hard about building high speed rail in a place that isn't useless.

Don't forget that the people that would be implementing this are the same people who are currently voting to criminalize every element of the cryptocurrency ecosystem (including development of more efficient standards) while still leaving an exception for PoW miners.

Re: Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

#770

Post by TOGoS »

wutbrodo wrote: post #599
jsonne wrote: post #360

If there is anything covid has taught me its that collective action isn't something we can rely on and is a lot more wishful thinking about the state of humanity rather than a sober look at the reality. Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program (you get $x for each ton you…

> Governments need to tax CO2 emissions on the business side and pour the money into carbon capture technology in the private space through investment and perhaps some sort of bounty program Unfortunately, getting this proposed, passed without mutilation, and enforced is also a collective action problem. Though I agree with your implied point that decentralized solutions should be the baseline, especially as they don…

> What scares me is that there doesn't even seem to be a constituency for bold action on climate. I used to at least be comforted by the political left carrying the torch, but the most recent iteration of the party has a "climate policy" that just dresses up the same old unrelated economic wishlist in climate rhetoric like a skinsuit

The left != the party (by which I assume you mean the Democrats)

A sizeable fraction of the population understands that climate change is an enormous problem and when polled has said solving it should be a priority (no numbers or poll link offhand, sorry). They are also routinely told that they are terrible people if they don't support the party that at least acknowledges climate change in their rhetoric over the one that for all I can tell is 100% committed to turning the planet into one big oil spill.

Don't confuse the actions of the politicians with what the populace actually cares about. Something like 70% wants universal government-run healthcare (yeah, even the people who watch Fox news[1]) but even with Democratic majorities in congress the politicians can't seem to scrounge the two craps to even pretend like they want to make it happen.

[1] https://youtu.be/zmlL8SRrImQ

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