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Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

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Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#21

Post by Scaevolus »

aNoob7000 wrote: post #9
foxyv wrote: post #2

The thing that scares me isn't so much the violation of privacy. It's the idea that some computer algorithm can accuse me of a crime automatically with no evidence and generate an investigation. Judging by how police respond to these leads, you can end up in jail based on this "Evidence." While you wait for a 6 month investigation to be completed you lose your job and get an arrest record. Even if your photo is just…

I want to add that they are scanning your property without your permission. The crazy part is that the government can't do this with a warrant or probable cause, but Apple decided that it can and will. Amazing that Apple destroyed their image about "Privacy" in minutes.

Not that anyone reads them, but every cloud storage EULA has a clause describing how they may remove content at will, especially if it is illegal. That's their justification for why this scanning is happening on photos that are being uploaded to iCloud, and not simply all photos on every device.

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/

> Apple reserves the right at all times to determine whether Content is appropriate and in compliance with this Agreement, and may screen, move, refuse, modify and/or remove Content at any time, without prior notice and in its sole discretion, if such Content is found to be in violation of this Agreement or is otherwise objectionable.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#22

Post by system16 »

I can't understand how anyone - even Apple's usual cheerleaders like Gruber - can justify defending this with a straight face. It's scanning your content on your device, without your consent. Full stop.

Apple's FAQ to try and quell some of the backlash for this just makes it sound even worse in my opinion with gems like this:

_Could governments force Apple to add non-CSAM images to the hash list?_

_Apple will refuse any such demands._

Bullshit. If China "requests" this with threat of banning them from selling the iPhone in China? They'll just say "Apple must operate under the laws of the countries it operates in" and its hands are tied. Which is most likely how this whole thing started.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_...

Maybe there will be more of an uproar when this inevitably comes to macOS.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#23

Post by foxyv »

throw03172019 wrote: post #7
foxyv wrote: post #2

The thing that scares me isn't so much the violation of privacy. It's the idea that some computer algorithm can accuse me of a crime automatically with no evidence and generate an investigation. Judging by how police respond to these leads, you can end up in jail based on this "Evidence." While you wait for a 6 month investigation to be completed you lose your job and get an arrest record. Even if your photo is just…

There is a human review (ugh.) as well. But still, your example is very concerning.

They say there is a human review, but fail to explain the parameters of the review.

How many photos is a reviewer expected to review in an hour? What are their incentives and performance metrics? Do they have a 3 party voting system to confirm? For positive human review is there additional scrutiny? Is data anonymized properly? Does law enforcement receive a copy? Is this going to be limited to child exploitation?

Without this info I just have to assume it's some guy in a box expected to review 1000 pictures an hour and gets scrutinized if he doesn't click at least 10% positive. So he's just counting 1 positive 9 negatives.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#24

Post by valparaiso »

As a back-end engineer I can't understand this outrage.

Apple's approach is less intrusive than Google and Microsoft since they don't touch your photos in iCloud except when you passed threshold and Apple workers will have technical ability to decrypt your detected (not regular) photos and manually compare with images from the database. Also iPhone doesn't trigger photo scanning if you don't upload them to iCloud.

From technical and privacy standpoint they have the best approach and it seems people are mad don't even understanding what Apple is doing.

Android users never cared but when news come to Apple everyone is losing their shit. I can't believe people are that weird.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#25

Post by aNoob7000 »

Scaevolus wrote: post #21
aNoob7000 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to add that they are scanning your property without your permission. The crazy part is that the government can't do this with a warrant or probable cause, but Apple decided that it can and will. Amazing that Apple destroyed their image about "Privacy" in minutes.

Not that anyone reads them, but every cloud storage EULA has a clause describing how they may remove content at will, especially if it is illegal. That's their justification for why this scanning is happening on photos that are being uploaded to iCloud, and not simply all photos on every device. https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/icloud/ > Apple reserves the right at all times to determine whether Content…

I have no problem with Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc.. Removing and reporting illegal content from their servers. My issue is with Apple doing it on your device or machine.

When did Apple become law enforcement?

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#26

Post by api »

aNoob7000 wrote: post #9
foxyv wrote: post #2

The thing that scares me isn't so much the violation of privacy. It's the idea that some computer algorithm can accuse me of a crime automatically with no evidence and generate an investigation. Judging by how police respond to these leads, you can end up in jail based on this "Evidence." While you wait for a 6 month investigation to be completed you lose your job and get an arrest record. Even if your photo is just…

I want to add that they are scanning your property without your permission. The crazy part is that the government can't do this with a warrant or probable cause, but Apple decided that it can and will. Amazing that Apple destroyed their image about "Privacy" in minutes.

I really wonder about their motives for this. It really has destroyed their image to the point that I'm thinking about abandoning the platform if nothing changes.

This will not just be about CP. In many countries this will instantly be used to detect any kind of dissent. In the US it will take longer, but eventually I can imagine "misinformation" as determined by some stupid algorithm flagging you for quiet social credit style lists. What constitutes misinformation will change with the political winds.

Hey... maybe we can let people select which reality they wish to be enforced! Maybe Republicans can get flagged if they spread memes about universal health care while Democrats can be flagged for discussing LGBT rights!

The only thing I can imagine is that Apple is facing enormous pressure from behind the scenes to become part of the panopticon. Private companies can't really resist governments.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#27

Post by jaywalk »

A lot of people seem to be forgetting/not know about the other aspect of what Apple will be doing, which is scanning iMessage pics sent or received by minors for nudity. If it's detected, their parents will be notified and have the ability to view the pic in question.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#29

Post by squarefoot »

ohdannyboy wrote: post #14
mypastself wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are numerous valuable child protection laws and services against which your knee-jerk would be unwarranted. It just happens to be warranted this time around.

He didn't say that all measures to protect children should be rejected out of hand. He is just saying that if someones argument starts and ends with fear baiting around children then they probably have ulterior motives.

Thanks, that's exactly my point.

Re: Apple wants to redefine what it means to violate your privacy. We mustn’t let it

#30

Post by mortenjorck »

I've been persuaded on this over the past few days.

Initially, I saw the controversy as overblown: It's the exact same content scan that already occurs when uploading images to iCloud; it will still only occur when uploading, and the only change is where it takes place.

I now see that as a reductionist take. Where it takes place does matter. The lines between client and server have been slowly blurred over the past decade to the point where a move like this may seem trivial to many, but ultimately, it is not. It becomes a foothold for so much more, and despite Apple's detailed assurances of all the friction they've installed onto this particular slippery slope, to step onto it at all is a step too far.

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