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A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

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Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#101
This blew my damn mind 10 years ago when it was first written up in Wired - the way the article was written, the build up to the actual run... all of it was so inspirational and today I still refer to it in my mind whenever I think: "People do the impossible all the time and the guidance they get from everyone around them is that they are INSANE"

I think these are the closest we get to moments of 'magic' in real life.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#102
post #77

large ocean yacht racing boats can go much faster than the wind: https://www.kqed.org/science/8503/how-do-these-boats-sail-fa... Also this: "According to the World Ice Racing Circuit, ice boats can sail four to five times wind speed. In March 2009 a land sailboat reached 126 miles per hour on a dry lake bed in the Mojave Desert" from: https://www.straightdope.com/21344013/how-can-racing-yachts-... I think I read some…

The difference here is that the vehicle in the article is traveling parallel with the wind

I thought the video below provided a good explanation for why this works. The physics are similar to those of a single sailboat going faster than the wind.

Imagine two sailboats on a cylindrical ocean on diagonal tacks, on opposite poles, and rotating around the core with rods connecting them to the core. Now you have a propeller. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQwgBAaBag&t=404s

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#103
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what is spinning the wheels?

The wind, I think. My current impression is that when it is starting, the whole thing is basically just acting as a big sail. You could lock the propeller and prevent it from spinning and it would still move forward. After that is where I start to get more fuzzy on the matter. On the one hand it makes sense that by using some of the speed from the wind to do other things, you can extract more total energy from the wi…

I may be wrong, but this is how I understand it. The propellers push against the wind. Effectively you’re creating a faster wind by pushing back at it. The energy that drives the propellers still comes indirectly entirely from the wind, but wind across a larger volume behind the propeller so therefore carrying more energy.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#104
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an expert, but I'm going to say no. There is no medium in space, moving relative to the solar wind, against which the "keel" of a solar sail ship could push.

Gravity? I guess something with enough mass to use gravity might be too large to use solar sails.

Gravity does not actually provide a force in the sense that a sailboat would require. (It acts on all parts of the vessel equally.)

There is some work on the idea of using both a photon sail and a magnetic sail on a single vessel. In many interesting locations, these would push in different directions, allowing you to sail.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#105
The propeller is being used a forward motion compensator.

At a standstill, the wind just acts on the entire vehicle including the stationary propeller, and sets the whole thing in motion.

Without the propeller, going directly downwind would be limited by the speed of the wind acting directly on the vehicle which otherwise lacks any relevant moving parts for the wind to act on.

By adding the propeller, driven by the forward motion via the wheels, a part of the vehicle now moves backwards (imagine the cross-section of a propeller blade as it spins, its intersection with the wind travels backwards into the wind) to compensate for the forward movement, giving the wind something to act on even when the vehicle travels faster than the wind.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#106

The most surprising thing here is that someone on Twitter made a bet, lost the bet, and then actually paid said bet. Playing devil's advocate here a little: The whole machine is very counter-intuitive, and I can see how I myself may disbelieve it if not for the irrefutable demonstration(s)[0]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI

It's not at all counterintuitive. It's just poorly explained. Energy is 1/2mv^2, and momentum (related to force) is mv. Anytime you have different speeds, you can arbitrage. If I am pushing against still air, I can generate nearly-infinite force for arbitrarily little energy. That's why you use wings instead of pointing jet engines downwards. You push a lot of air by a little bit (lots of mv, not a lot of 1/2mv^2, si…

I think you're getting at it, but at the limit, you throw out the air, which Derek did in the follow up. Once you have two surfaces moving relative to each other, energy can be extracted. Doesn't matter how fast you're going relative to the two surfaces.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really would like a simple explanation of how that is possible. AIUI, when speed is stable, the wheels turning provide power to the propeller. But if the propeller pushes the car, which in turn makes the wheels turn faster making the car faster than the wind itself, what makes it different from perpetual motion machines? I would love a diagram showing how the power flows in this system.

Here's a simple explanation: Let's assume that the windspeed is 10 km/hr. We all agree that the wind can push this vehicle so that it is now going 10 km/hr downwind, right? From the vehicle's point of view, the wind is now 0 km/hr. But its wheels are turning, which turns the propeller, which behaves like a fan, pushing the vehicle forward in the still air, so that it is now traveling faster than the wind. This isn't…

Your explanation that the propeller works like a fan implies a sort of perpetual motion, though, since it implies that the source of energy that pushes it past the speed of the wind is somehow coming from inside the car itself.

The truth is that the car is always getting its energy from the wind, and not expending any of its own. It's just that it's been set up in a clever way that breaks our intuition. We tend to want to mentally simplify the propeller down to a disk whose motion vector is the same as that of the car. But here you've really got to think about the rotation of the propeller and the helical path its blades travel along. The wind is interacting with surfaces whose momentary motion relative to it at any given moment in time are very poorly modeled by the disk abstraction.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#108

The most surprising thing here is that someone on Twitter made a bet, lost the bet, and then actually paid said bet. Playing devil's advocate here a little: The whole machine is very counter-intuitive, and I can see how I myself may disbelieve it if not for the irrefutable demonstration(s)[0]. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI

To be fair, they both agreed to make the whole bet public. They went on video, with "science celebrities" like Neil Degrasse Tyson and Bill Nye, and I believe they even signed something? It's kinda hard to backup from that. It also was a UCLA professor, so not quite some random person on Twitter.

EDIT: As an aside, I would also add that the original video did a poor job at explaining, and the demo had clear flaws which were the points the physics professor was making. More specifically, his 2 main points were

1. It's possible that when the picture of the flag was taken, the wind was slower than the car, but the car was still moving faster due to momentum

2. It's possible that the wind speed up at the propeller level is different from the ground level where the flag was

Those were both very valid criticisms, even though they didn't actually matter in the grander scheme of things.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#109
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having 9.5 million subscribers on a science-based YouTube channel is definitely more notable than having gone to university, or indeed having a PhD. I think the writer picked the correct description here.

I see your point, but the title and first paragraphs try to paint the picture of a "funky science" youtuber betting a UCLA physicist $10k and winning (which for me is very different to the truth: UCLA physicist bets another physicist $10k and loses)

He did study Physics but his main field is science education, I think it's fair to assume a physics professor would know a bit more. I also think it's a bit of your own preconceived notion at play here assuming that calling someone a "Youtuber" is meant as a negative. This is equivalent to saying "Science communicator vs physics professor", which is a fair portrayal.

Re: A wind-powered vehicle that can travel twice as fast as the wind itself

#110
post #98
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having 9.5 million subscribers on a science-based YouTube channel is definitely more notable than having gone to university, or indeed having a PhD. I think the writer picked the correct description here.

It's a sad indictment of the times when people feel that having a million subscribers (read: being popular) is more notable than having a PhD (read: expert training) in a relevant field. It's no wonder anti-vaccine material is so widespread. Someone famous on Youtube said it was bad, it must be true!

Subscribers do so for a reason. In this case not insignificantly because of expert training.

I'd suggest that very few YouTubers are popular because they are popular, in fact I think this is fairly rare in general. I think it's more likely that they provide some value to their audiences. I think looking down on "celebrity culture" often fails to account for the types of value that one doesn't value themselves.

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