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Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

psyche.co

91–100 of 174 posts

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#91
post #4

I wish the author[1] read a bit more about the science of wisdom and foolishness before ruining their good intuition with a stubbornly limited perspective. > Stupidity is a very specific cognitive failing. Crudely put, it occurs when you don’t have the right conceptual tools for the job. The result is an inability to make sense of what is happening and a resulting tendency to force phenomena into crude, distorting pi…

> So stupidity is tough to fix.

I think there's a lot of people who have a higher bar than that (or lower bar depending on your perspective), but there is good traditional agreement;

You can't fix stupid.

That's one of its defining features.

Regardless, it's sometimes necessary to work year-round on maintenance & repair.

And everyone knows the effort involved polishing a turd and putting lipstick on a pig takes up all the time in between emergency restoration sessions.

This is something you need to get rid of whole-hog.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#92

There is no way round that "stupid" is primarily an insult thrown at opponents, not a statement of fact. As a matter of fact we are all incredibly smart. And stupid too. With that said, I have a hard time agreeing with the definition of stupidity put forth in the article, as far as I understand it. To me stupidity is that state of mind that one may find oneself in before the first cup of coffee in the morning, or whe…

I wholeheartedly agree. It's by definition an insult and I don't believe an academic measurement of stupidity (or intelligence) is a terribly fruitful endeavor. "My math says you're stupid!" is a place some people may go with this.

I try to think in terms of bias: "what biases do I possess that may cause me to yield an outcome that is negative?" or "what bias does person X have that lead them to those actions or words?"

I feel it promotes empathy, questioning and understanding. Not name calling. At least, it's helped me to figure out some surprising things about myself and others!

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#93

The adjudication of what is stupid is inevitably subjective, rather than absolute, because it depends on the objectives and interests of the subject, as distinct from the observer.

> subjective, rather than absolute

This is a false dichotomy. If I am trying try accomplish X, it is absolutely true that I am trying to accomplish X. Both you (the observer) and I can acknowledge this fact.

> adjudication of what is stupid is inevitably subjective

No, because as you yourself say...

> it depends on the objectives and interests of the subject

and what objective you're pursuing is factually the case as I already stated.

Furthermore, objectives and interests are not arbitrary and brute facts, but ultimately related to human nature. It is possible in principle, even if not in practice, to determine whether an objective being pursued is wrong, stupid, etc. It makes no sense, for example, to say that someone isn't stupid because he is pursuing the objective of suicide successfully. The objective itself is stupid because it is objectively (not "subjectively") contrary to the good of the subject (euthanasia supporters notwithstanding) to kill yourself and because it is factually the case that the ("subjective") understanding the person has of what is good for him is stupid.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#94
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now we have cyber domain where this is definitely not true.

It's clearly true: it's cheaper to prevent vulnerabilities than to find and exploit them.

Does this assume a stable and relatively slow rate of change? Because at some scales I imagine preventing vulnerabilities could be equally difficult.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#95
The author IMHO hasn't quite got it. He's focused on people using the wrong conceptual model for solving a problem and says things like:

>> Stupidity has two features that make it particularly dangerous when compared with other vices. First, unlike character flaws, stupidity is primarily a property of groups or traditions, not individuals: after all, we get most of our concepts, our mental tools, from the society we are raised in.

I would argue that it's not the misapplication of existing ideas, but ignoring the reality in front of you and doing something that goes against it. You might be going against it by habitually applying the wrong mental model, but it's only "stupid" in cases where that model seems obviously wrong (to others, or if you step back, etc) in a relevant way.

An example from a game: We are losing. We can win if we score one goal (2 points). There is only enough time for one quick play. Obviously we should make our best offensive play (including putting the goalie on offense and leaving the net open), but someone on the team gets the ball and takes a very defensive (slow) approach and the clock runs out. We lose. That was stupid - taking your time was never going to result in a win. It is a case of using the wrong mental model, but the reason it's stupid is because it obviously can't work in the given situation.

Product development example: The widget makes too much noise - the gears are noisy. Options: 1) change the material and test again. 2) hey the gear geometry can be improved - tweak design, make new tools and new parts. Management picks option 1 because we have a tight schedule and need to show improvement. OK with no other information, but this becomes really stupid when you hear that the material had already been changed once with no measurable effect.

Government example: People thinking they can legislate outcomes without any consideration how people or a system actually behave. Prohibition for example.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#96
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now we have cyber domain where this is definitely not true.

It's clearly true: it's cheaper to prevent vulnerabilities than to find and exploit them.

"Defense vs Offense" is underspecified for this disagreement. Considering "defense" as the developers writing an application, and "offense" as the reverse engineers attempting to exploit it, defense may still be cheaper in some scenarios.

If you consider "defense" as an organization attempting to provide a service securely, and "offense" as all the security threats they are exposed to, it seems hard to argue that the defensive side has any sort of advantage over all of the attackers.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#97

My working definition of stupidity is making poor predictions that lead to self-harm. The more stupid the predictions, the more extreme the self-harm. I'm not sure trying to improvise a way through a novel kind of conflict counts as stupid so much as untrained. Maybe there was someone in WWI saying "This is obviously wrong and won't work - we should do this other thing instead." Maybe there wasn't. At this distance i…

You might like Philip Tetlock's "Expert Political Judgement: How Good is it? How can we know?". He quantitatively studied political predictions for I think it was 20 years and how different cognitive styles affect effectiveness. Specifically he used the analogy of "foxes vs hedgehogs" from Isiah Berlin's famous essay as different cognitive styles and compared predictions over along period.

https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Political-Judgment-Good-Know/d... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hedgehog_and_the_Fox

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#98
post #57
post #18

The author may be onto something. Or they may have had one good idea and are now trying to make it fit too many problems. WWI did have moments of extreme stupidity. But the real problem was that, for the first time since castles vs. troops without cannon, defense was stronger than offense. Machine guns, barbed wire, and trenches could resist most attacks. When that wasn't enough, both sides had plenty of railroad cap…

The difference isn't up to trench warfare, machine guns etc. It's that industrialized agriculture had been developed, and thus you could still feed millions of people who were fighting. That's what created the resiliance to prolonged war. In cultures without industrialized agriculture, losing that many people to war would doom everyone. If you wanted to survive, you'd have to stop for harvest or if you lost too many…

The opposing forces in the US Civil War sustained large armies in the field for years even before widespread industrialized agriculture. In some ways it was a preview of WW1, showing the difficulty of breaking through defensive positions.

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#99
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps surprisingly the main problem with current warfare isn't the lack of options to kill enough people in some general area. Although if you were to go in that direction COVID-19 would be a minor inconvenience when it comes to warfare so I'm not too sure what you're aiming at there. The Spanish "used" diseases that were a heck of a lot more severe.

The point is to strike at the enemy the moment they are weakened. Western societies were severely weakened in March 2020 onward to summer 2020. They were on lockdown, there have been logistics problems, which had impact on things like police and secret service. I very much doubt military are exempt from it. Being in a good condition isn't a guarantee you remain unaffected, and the danger of being affected mildly is t…

Lockdowns were a political choice to minimize impact on healthcare systems, not something that governments necessarily had to do. Obviously guerilla movements aren't going to suspend operations just because of a respiratory virus. The vast majority of Taliban combatants are young and metabolically healthy enough to be at virtually zero risk from COVID-19.

(And it should go without saying, but the concept of biological warfare is so abhorrent that it should never be considered as an option.)

Re: Stupidity is a specific cognitive failing

#100

My working definition of stupidity is making poor predictions that lead to self-harm. The more stupid the predictions, the more extreme the self-harm. I'm not sure trying to improvise a way through a novel kind of conflict counts as stupid so much as untrained. Maybe there was someone in WWI saying "This is obviously wrong and won't work - we should do this other thing instead." Maybe there wasn't. At this distance i…

Case in point: former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. He was obviously quite intelligent, in the sense that he was well educated and would have scored highly on any standard IQ test. Yet he consistently made stupid decisions with drastic consequences for the entire world.
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